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2012 APBRmetric Player Rankings: By Position

Posted by Neil Paine on July 11, 2011

As a follow-up to this afternoon's list of the Top 593 Players of 2012, here's a positional breakdown for the 452 players who played at least 1 game in 2011:

Rank Point Guards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
1 Chris Paul PG 2880 26 24.27 1 0.230 1 5.26 1 6.0 2 2 1 2
2 Derrick Rose PG 3026 23 21.57 2 0.165 3 4.28 2 0.9 19 19 2 5
3 Steve Nash PG 2497 37 20.31 5 0.154 4 2.44 7 7.6 1 7 1 9
3 Russell Westbrook PG 2847 23 21.27 3 0.132 11 3.14 4 2.7 5 11 3 9
3 Deron Williams PG 2465 27 20.80 4 0.154 5 3.58 3 2.6 6 6 3 9
6 Tony Parker PG 2528 29 19.56 6 0.143 7 2.75 6 0.3 26 26 6 13
7 Chauncey Billups PG 2310 35 18.76 7 0.167 2 2.36 8 2.2 10 10 2 15
8 Rajon Rondo PG 2527 25 18.04 10 0.141 8 2.90 5 1.2 15 15 5 18
9 Andre Miller PG 2650 35 17.65 12 0.128 14 1.46 11 2.3 9 14 9 23
10 Jameer Nelson PG 2319 29 15.68 24 0.139 9 1.55 10 1.4 14 24 9 24
11 Stephen Curry PG 2489 23 18.48 8 0.111 16 1.02 16 1.7 11 16 8 27
11 Kyle Lowry PG 2563 25 16.24 19 0.128 13 1.05 14 3.4 4 19 4 27
13 Jason Kidd PG 2653 38 15.22 32 0.125 15 1.24 13 2.5 8 32 8 28
14 Ty Lawson PG 2103 24 17.72 11 0.148 6 0.66 20 0.8 20 20 6 31
15 Devin Harris PG 2254 28 17.28 14 0.087 35 0.90 19 1.6 13 35 13 33
16 Louis Williams PG 1747 25 18.43 9 0.131 12 0.41 25 -1.1 45 45 9 37
17 Raymond Felton PG 2737 27 15.93 23 0.098 27 1.03 15 1.6 12 27 12 38
18 Baron Davis PG 1649 32 16.65 17 0.076 52 0.42 24 4.1 3 52 3 41
19 Mike Conley PG 2872 24 15.39 29 0.100 23 0.44 23 2.5 7 29 7 46
20 Rodney Stuckey PG 2183 25 17.20 15 0.089 32 0.91 18 0.2 30 32 15 48
Rank Point Guards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
21 George Hill PG 2148 25 14.63 41 0.134 10 0.99 17 -0.2 32 41 10 49
22 Brandon Jennings PG 2169 22 15.55 25 0.084 41 1.61 9 0.2 28 41 9 53
23 Orien Greene PG 5 29 15.49 26 0.105 20 0.03 28 -1.9 60 60 20 54
24 Marcus Thornton PG 1775 24 16.95 16 0.099 26 -0.03 29 -1.3 50 50 16 55
25 Luke Ridnour PG 2159 30 15.45 27 0.108 18 -0.05 30 -0.3 35 35 18 57
25 Beno Udrih PG 2734 29 15.34 30 0.111 17 0.25 27 -0.5 37 37 17 57
27 Jose Calderon PG 2102 30 16.51 18 0.100 25 -0.22 33 -0.7 39 39 18 58
28 Jrue Holiday PG 2901 21 15.13 35 0.083 45 0.33 26 0.4 22 45 22 61
29 Jason Williams PG 295 36 11.94 72 0.101 22 -1.16 41 0.6 21 72 21 63
30 D.J. Augustin PG 2757 24 15.16 34 0.108 19 -0.10 32 -1.4 51 51 19 66
31 Toney Douglas PG 1971 25 15.30 31 0.101 21 -1.25 42 -1.1 45 45 21 73
32 Darren Collison PG 2360 24 16.10 22 0.083 44 -0.06 31 -3.0 80 80 22 75
32 Tyreke Evans PG 2107 22 16.23 20 0.063 64 1.35 12 -1.7 55 64 12 75
32 Jeremy Lin PG 284 23 15.18 33 0.088 33 -1.77 51 -0.9 42 51 33 75
35 Ramon Sessions PG 2133 25 17.35 13 0.086 39 -0.80 37 -1.6 53 53 13 76
36 Mo Williams PG 1788 29 15.07 37 0.084 43 0.59 21 -2.6 76 76 21 80
37 John Lucas PG 10 29 14.12 45 0.087 34 -0.61 36 -2.1 64 64 34 81
38 C.J. Watson PG 1091 27 13.56 53 0.089 31 -1.85 56 0.3 25 56 25 84
39 Derek Fisher PG 2297 37 9.42 90 0.084 42 -1.37 44 1.0 18 90 18 86
40 Mike Bibby PG 2285 33 12.06 69 0.094 28 -0.97 39 -1.2 48 69 28 87
Rank Point Guards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
40 Jarrett Jack PG 1722 28 14.74 39 0.080 47 -1.08 40 -1.9 59 59 39 87
42 Mario Chalmers PG 1578 25 11.22 78 0.087 36 -1.57 47 -1.0 43 78 36 90
42 Willie Warren PG 134 22 13.43 55 0.086 37 -1.70 50 -0.8 40 55 37 90
44 Daniel Gibson PG 1865 25 12.78 60 0.080 49 -1.26 43 0.4 23 60 23 92
45 Jose Barea PG 1669 27 14.17 44 0.085 40 -1.66 49 -2.6 74 74 40 93
46 Gilbert Arenas PG 1796 30 12.84 59 0.034 82 -0.42 35 1.2 16 82 16 94
46 Gary Neal PG 1685 27 13.37 56 0.100 24 -0.89 38 -2.5 71 71 24 94
46 Nate Robinson PG 1013 27 13.70 50 0.080 48 -1.53 46 -1.0 44 50 44 94
49 Earl Boykins PG 862 35 15.44 28 0.092 30 -2.23 66 -3.7 86 86 28 96
50 John Wall PG 2606 21 16.20 21 0.046 75 0.57 22 -2.7 77 77 21 97
51 Shaun Livingston PG 1261 26 14.09 46 0.075 53 -2.23 65 -0.2 33 65 33 99
52 Marcus Banks PG 22 30 13.83 48 0.081 46 -1.78 53 -6.5 91 91 46 101
52 Aaron Brooks PG 1284 27 14.55 42 0.071 59 -0.35 34 -2.6 74 74 34 101
54 Eddie House PG 978 33 12.04 70 0.092 29 -1.91 59 -1.2 48 70 29 107
55 Jordan Farmar PG 1796 25 13.54 54 0.063 65 -1.82 54 -0.8 41 65 41 108
56 Rodrigue Beaubois PG 496 23 14.73 40 0.075 54 -1.85 57 -3.1 81 81 40 111
57 Antonio Daniels PG 35 36 12.69 63 0.079 50 -1.95 60 -1.6 54 63 50 114
57 T.J. Ford PG 773 28 12.75 62 0.049 71 -1.77 52 -1.4 52 71 52 114
59 Kirk Hinrich PG 2157 31 12.22 67 0.073 56 -1.43 45 -1.9 61 67 45 117
60 Steve Blake PG 1581 31 9.99 87 0.072 58 -2.09 62 0.4 24 87 24 120
60 Keyon Dooling PG 1757 31 11.77 73 0.073 57 -2.19 63 1.2 17 73 17 120
60 Jeff Teague PG 963 23 14.04 47 0.076 51 -2.58 69 -2.4 69 69 47 120
Rank Point Guards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
63 Will Bynum PG 1125 29 14.77 38 0.065 63 -1.91 58 -3.4 85 85 38 121
64 Andy Rautins PG 24 25 13.12 57 0.048 72 -1.63 48 -2.3 67 72 48 124
65 Goran Dragic PG 1234 25 13.81 49 0.061 66 -2.07 61 -2.6 73 73 49 127
65 Ben Uzoh PG 437 23 15.13 36 0.068 62 -2.91 72 -2.2 65 72 36 127
67 Jerryd Bayless PG 1495 23 14.23 43 0.069 61 -2.24 67 -3.3 83 83 43 128
67 Randy Foye PG 1551 28 12.42 65 0.059 68 -1.82 55 -2.1 63 68 55 128
67 Eric Maynor PG 1200 24 12.19 68 0.069 60 -3.13 78 0.2 29 78 29 128
70 Sundiata Gaines PG 300 25 13.66 51 0.045 76 -3.10 76 -1.9 58 76 51 134
71 A.J. Price PG 795 25 12.39 66 0.044 77 -2.94 74 -0.3 34 77 34 140
72 Sherron Collins PG 66 24 11.96 71 0.038 81 -2.75 70 -2.4 70 81 70 141
73 Carlos Arroyo PG 1185 32 10.63 83 0.086 38 -2.20 64 -2.8 78 83 38 142
74 Lester Hudson PG 73 27 12.51 64 0.042 79 -3.13 79 -1.8 56 79 56 143
75 Zabian Dowdell PG 292 27 12.94 58 0.024 84 -2.91 73 -2.5 71 84 58 144
76 Eugene Jeter PG 858 28 11.74 74 0.047 73 -3.62 86 -2.2 66 86 66 147
76 Chris Quinn PG 292 28 10.70 82 0.059 67 -3.28 80 -0.5 36 82 36 147
78 Earl Watson PG 1567 32 10.55 84 0.039 80 -2.90 71 0.3 27 84 27 151
79 Chris Duhon PG 774 29 9.67 89 0.044 78 -3.02 75 -0.7 38 89 38 153
79 Royal Ivey PG 155 30 10.54 85 0.075 55 -2.41 68 -4.0 88 88 55 153
79 Patrick Mills PG 783 23 13.57 52 0.053 69 -3.58 84 -4.0 89 89 52 153
Rank Point Guards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
82 Eric Bledsoe PG 1841 22 11.39 77 0.016 87 -3.11 77 -2.3 68 87 68 154
83 Anthony Carter PG 463 36 10.46 86 0.046 74 -3.29 81 -2.9 79 86 74 160
83 Acie Law PG 726 27 11.40 76 0.051 70 -3.61 85 -3.4 84 85 70 160
85 Sebastian Telfair PG 711 26 11.08 79 0.023 85 -3.34 82 0.0 31 85 31 161
86 Armon Johnson PG 277 22 11.70 75 0.010 88 -4.33 89 -2.0 62 89 62 163
87 Jonny Flynn PG 983 22 10.90 81 -0.019 91 -3.49 83 -3.7 87 91 81 170
87 Mustafa Shakur PG 159 27 11.06 80 -0.004 90 -4.36 90 -1.8 56 90 56 170
87 Jermaine Taylor PG 483 25 12.77 61 0.032 83 -3.67 87 -4.5 90 90 61 170
90 Ishmael Smith PG 442 23 9.85 88 0.016 86 -4.06 88 -3.1 81 88 81 174
91 Ronnie Price PG 717 28 8.27 91 0.004 89 -4.63 91 -1.1 47 91 47 180
Rank Shooting Guards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
1 Dwyane Wade SG 2824 30 26.30 1 0.216 1 6.26 1 6.1 2 2 1 2
2 Kobe Bryant SG 2779 33 22.79 2 0.171 3 5.13 2 4.6 3 3 2 5
2 Manu Ginobili SG 2426 34 21.44 3 0.195 2 3.70 3 7.5 1 3 1 5
4 Kevin Martin SG 2603 28 20.03 4 0.156 4 2.74 4 -1.3 44 44 4 8
5 Ray Allen SG 2890 36 15.81 15 0.154 5 2.13 7 3.0 4 15 4 12
6 Andre Iguodala SG 2469 28 17.48 7 0.120 14 2.15 6 1.9 8 14 6 15
7 Brandon Roy SG 1310 27 18.39 5 0.141 8 1.96 8 1.3 14 14 5 16
8 Joe Johnson SG 2554 30 17.35 8 0.103 23 1.90 9 2.9 5 23 5 17
9 James Harden SG 2189 22 16.04 13 0.148 6 0.38 18 1.8 10 18 6 23
10 Tony Allen SG 1494 30 16.85 10 0.133 10 0.31 19 1.2 15 19 10 25
11 Jason Terry SG 2564 34 16.15 11 0.109 19 1.03 14 1.5 12 19 11 26
12 Vince Carter SG 2051 35 15.84 14 0.112 16 1.13 13 2.4 7 16 7 27
13 Eric Gordon SG 2112 23 16.99 9 0.102 24 1.16 12 0.5 17 24 9 29
14 Jason Richardson SG 2715 31 15.45 19 0.122 12 1.17 11 0.2 23 23 11 31
15 J.R. Smith SG 1968 26 16.11 12 0.104 21 0.27 20 2.6 6 21 6 32
16 Kyle Korver SG 1649 30 13.12 41 0.136 9 -0.29 25 1.6 11 41 9 36
16 Wesley Matthews SG 2758 25 14.87 21 0.122 13 0.60 15 -1.7 54 54 13 36
18 Ronnie Brewer SG 1781 26 13.96 26 0.131 11 0.26 21 -0.3 31 31 11 47
18 Jamal Crawford SG 2297 31 15.52 16 0.092 33 0.07 22 0.1 25 33 16 47
20 Stephen Jackson SG 2405 33 14.94 20 0.054 70 1.41 10 -0.2 30 70 10 50
Rank Shooting Guards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
21 J.J. Redick SG 1513 27 13.52 35 0.148 7 0.44 17 -1.8 57 57 7 52
22 Landry Fields SG 2541 23 13.84 28 0.102 25 -0.70 30 0.1 24 30 24 53
23 Othyus Jeffers SG 322 26 13.99 25 0.097 26 -1.30 39 -0.2 28 39 25 54
24 Jodie Meeks SG 2062 24 12.66 46 0.112 17 -0.48 28 0.0 27 46 17 55
25 Michael Redd SG 134 32 13.76 30 0.084 38 -0.34 27 0.4 21 38 21 57
26 Monta Ellis SG 3227 26 17.99 6 0.070 52 2.29 5 -2.7 73 73 5 58
27 Delonte West SG 453 28 13.59 33 0.109 18 -0.32 26 -2.5 69 69 18 59
28 Rudy Fernandez SG 1821 26 13.77 29 0.106 20 -0.72 31 -0.6 35 35 20 60
28 Tracy McGrady SG 1686 32 14.50 22 0.061 60 -1.29 38 0.8 16 60 16 60
30 Arron Afflalo SG 2324 26 12.68 45 0.114 15 0.06 23 -1.0 38 45 15 61
31 O.J. Mayo SG 1869 24 13.87 27 0.073 48 -0.49 29 -0.4 33 48 27 62
31 John Salmons SG 2554 32 13.70 31 0.094 31 0.53 16 -1.1 41 41 16 62
33 Keith Bogans SG 1461 31 8.98 85 0.103 22 -1.20 36 -0.2 29 85 22 65
34 Leandro Barbosa SG 1395 29 15.51 17 0.070 51 -1.62 49 0.5 18 51 17 67
35 Francisco Garcia SG 1386 30 13.50 36 0.093 32 -1.06 34 -1.7 55 55 32 70
36 Ben Gordon SG 2131 28 13.53 34 0.055 68 -1.27 37 0.4 20 68 20 71
37 Richard Hamilton SG 1498 33 15.48 18 0.061 59 -0.23 24 -1.5 50 59 18 74
37 Anthony Morrow SG 1856 26 13.13 40 0.083 39 -1.20 35 1.3 13 40 13 74
39 Danny Green SG 92 24 14.21 24 0.091 34 -1.35 43 -2.1 59 59 24 77
40 Mike Miller SG 838 31 12.38 52 0.095 28 -0.89 33 -1.3 45 52 28 78
Rank Shooting Guards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
41 Shannon Brown SG 1568 26 13.39 37 0.095 30 -1.34 42 -4.1 88 88 30 79
41 Bill Walker SG 784 24 12.87 43 0.090 36 -2.06 61 -0.4 33 61 33 79
43 Quentin Richardson SG 955 31 10.92 71 0.095 29 -1.32 41 -1.1 40 71 29 81
44 Thabo Sefolosha SG 2049 27 10.59 72 0.091 35 -1.57 47 0.4 19 72 19 82
45 Mario West SG 116 27 11.85 55 0.090 37 -1.36 44 -1.3 43 55 37 87
46 Marquis Daniels SG 938 31 11.58 59 0.082 40 -1.60 48 0.1 25 59 25 88
46 Gerald Henderson SG 1661 24 13.25 39 0.071 49 -1.87 52 -0.9 36 52 36 88
48 Courtney Lee SG 1723 26 12.72 44 0.076 45 -1.47 45 -1.0 38 45 38 89
49 DeMar DeRozan SG 2851 22 14.39 23 0.061 58 -0.76 32 -2.9 77 77 23 90
50 Sasha Vujacic SG 1648 27 12.46 49 0.079 43 -1.32 40 -2.7 74 74 40 92
51 Marco Belinelli SG 1957 25 12.47 48 0.076 46 -1.76 50 -1.3 42 50 42 94
52 Nick Young SG 2034 26 13.62 32 0.060 63 -1.79 51 -1.5 47 63 32 98
53 Von Wafer SG 552 26 12.41 51 0.097 27 -1.97 56 -1.6 51 56 27 102
54 Mickael Pietrus SG 1107 29 11.10 70 0.081 42 -1.53 46 -2.1 61 70 42 107
54 Sam Young SG 1577 26 12.93 42 0.077 44 -2.11 63 -3.4 80 80 42 107
56 Kyle Weaver SG 69 25 12.14 53 0.065 55 -2.35 69 0.3 22 69 22 108
57 Luther Head SG 586 29 11.93 54 0.063 57 -2.77 74 -1.5 48 74 48 111
58 Daequan Cook SG 598 24 11.39 67 0.081 41 -2.26 67 -1.5 46 67 41 113
58 Dahntay Jones SG 589 31 11.77 58 0.069 53 -1.96 55 -3.5 85 85 53 113
60 Corey Brewer SG 1510 25 11.84 56 0.034 80 -2.06 60 -0.9 37 80 37 116
60 Anthony Parker SG 2091 36 10.55 73 0.060 62 -1.95 54 1.9 9 73 9 116
Rank Shooting Guards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
62 Roger Mason SG 319 31 10.21 77 0.066 54 -2.04 59 -1.9 58 77 54 117
63 Evan Turner SG 1797 23 11.41 65 0.065 56 -1.91 53 -2.4 67 67 53 121
64 Trey Johnson SG 94 27 12.44 50 0.059 66 -2.02 57 -2.3 65 66 50 122
65 Alonzo Gee SG 1118 24 11.83 57 0.057 67 -2.46 72 -2.1 59 72 57 126
66 Damien Wilkins SG 676 32 11.48 62 0.075 47 -2.19 65 -3.7 86 86 47 127
67 Dominique Jones SG 135 23 13.31 38 0.060 64 -2.17 64 -2.5 71 71 38 128
68 Willie Green SG 1674 30 11.55 60 0.059 65 -2.42 70 -2.4 68 70 60 133
69 James Anderson SG 286 22 11.15 69 0.071 50 -2.22 66 -3.5 83 83 50 135
70 Brandon Rush SG 1754 26 10.40 75 0.060 61 -2.02 58 -3.5 82 82 58 136
70 Jerry Stackhouse SG 50 37 11.17 68 0.050 74 -2.28 68 -1.7 56 74 56 136
70 Lance Stephenson SG 115 21 11.45 63 0.022 81 -2.74 73 -1.7 53 81 53 136
73 Jordan Crawford SG 1027 23 12.52 47 -0.008 87 -2.07 62 -2.8 75 87 47 137
74 Matt Carroll SG 582 31 11.54 61 0.055 69 -3.59 81 -2.6 72 81 61 141
75 Raja Bell SG 2097 35 9.05 84 0.051 73 -2.44 71 -1.6 52 84 52 144
76 Morris Peterson SG 23 34 10.40 76 0.053 71 -2.79 75 -2.2 63 76 63 146
77 Charlie Bell SG 171 32 8.66 87 0.052 72 -2.87 76 -0.3 32 87 32 148
78 Manny Harris SG 933 22 11.41 66 0.017 83 -3.66 82 -2.5 70 83 66 152
79 Joey Graham SG 586 29 10.14 79 0.042 76 -3.57 80 -1.5 48 80 48 155
80 Rasual Butler SG 770 32 9.77 80 0.040 79 -3.03 77 -2.9 76 80 76 156
Rank Shooting Guards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
81 Xavier Henry SG 527 20 9.20 83 0.041 78 -3.56 79 -3.1 78 83 78 157
82 Greivis Vasquez SG 860 25 10.46 74 0.042 77 -3.74 84 -3.5 81 84 74 158
83 Sonny Weems SG 1413 25 11.42 64 0.013 84 -3.52 78 -3.8 87 87 64 162
84 Wayne Ellington SG 1181 24 9.63 81 0.019 82 -3.99 87 -2.3 64 87 64 163
85 Christian Eyenga SG 947 22 10.17 78 0.002 86 -3.90 86 -2.3 66 86 66 164
86 DeShawn Stevenson SG 1158 30 8.52 88 0.046 75 -3.70 83 -3.5 84 88 75 167
86 Garrett Temple SG 230 25 9.58 82 0.012 85 -3.77 85 -2.2 62 85 62 167
88 Avery Bradley SG 162 21 8.93 86 -0.017 88 -4.05 88 -3.1 79 88 79 174
Rank Small Forwards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
1 LeBron James SF 3063 27 28.51 1 0.263 1 7.71 1 8.3 1 1 1 2
2 Kevin Durant SF 3038 23 24.35 2 0.200 2 5.32 2 3.0 8 8 2 4
3 Paul Pierce SF 2774 34 18.69 4 0.182 3 3.60 4 3.8 3 4 3 7
4 Carmelo Anthony SF 2751 27 21.50 3 0.136 6 4.02 3 1.5 16 16 3 9
5 Gerald Wallace SF 2693 29 17.05 10 0.137 5 2.47 6 3.5 4 10 4 11
6 Luol Deng SF 3208 26 15.73 15 0.133 8 2.03 7 5.2 2 15 2 15
7 Danny Granger SF 2763 28 18.58 5 0.126 12 3.01 5 2.5 11 12 5 16
8 Andrei Kirilenko SF 1999 30 16.89 12 0.125 13 0.96 9 1.5 17 17 9 25
9 Jeremy Evans SF 463 24 18.11 6 0.152 4 0.32 21 -1.7 60 60 4 27
10 Nicolas Batum SF 2522 23 15.30 17 0.135 7 0.66 12 -1.3 51 51 7 29
11 Danilo Gallinari SF 2104 23 15.60 16 0.124 14 0.62 13 0.8 25 25 13 30
11 Hedo Turkoglu SF 2540 32 13.49 36 0.112 18 0.69 10 2.5 12 36 10 30
13 Jared Dudley SF 2140 26 15.01 21 0.126 10 0.51 16 1.5 15 21 10 31
13 Rudy Gay SF 2152 25 17.08 9 0.106 27 2.03 8 1.0 22 27 8 31
13 Thaddeus Young SF 2135 23 17.00 11 0.109 23 0.32 20 3.1 6 23 6 31
16 Shawn Marion SF 2253 33 15.99 14 0.110 22 0.61 14 -0.3 36 36 14 36
17 Corey Maggette SF 1401 32 17.37 7 0.123 15 0.12 24 -1.7 61 61 7 39
18 Rashard Lewis SF 1824 32 13.31 41 0.107 26 0.40 17 3.3 5 41 5 43
19 Matt Barnes SF 1020 31 13.86 29 0.126 11 0.33 19 -0.5 38 38 11 48
19 James Jones SF 1549 31 10.90 73 0.131 9 -0.11 27 1.1 21 73 9 48
Rank Small Forwards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
21 Mike Dunleavy SF 1683 31 14.10 27 0.109 24 -0.10 26 3.0 7 27 7 50
22 Richard Jefferson SF 2459 31 12.96 45 0.112 17 0.67 11 -0.1 34 45 11 51
23 Chase Budinger SF 1737 23 14.51 24 0.099 30 -1.01 41 1.1 20 41 20 54
24 Devin Ebanks SF 118 22 17.22 8 0.121 16 -0.98 40 -3.3 85 85 8 56
24 Tayshaun Prince SF 2562 31 15.17 19 0.074 47 -0.25 30 0.8 26 47 19 56
24 Dorell Wright SF 3147 26 15.02 20 0.098 31 0.08 25 0.2 32 32 20 56
27 Luc Mbah a Moute SF 2093 25 11.96 58 0.112 19 -0.48 34 0.9 24 58 19 58
28 Grant Hill SF 2409 39 14.26 26 0.094 34 0.18 23 -0.5 39 39 23 60
28 Marvin Williams SF 1865 25 13.79 31 0.110 21 -0.21 29 -1.2 47 47 21 60
30 Shane Battier SF 2375 33 11.85 61 0.102 29 -0.27 32 2.7 10 61 10 61
31 Wilson Chandler SF 2401 24 14.42 25 0.072 49 -0.48 33 0.4 29 49 25 62
32 Caron Butler SF 867 31 14.61 23 0.068 55 0.59 15 -0.6 41 55 15 64
33 Ron Artest SF 2410 32 11.95 60 0.092 35 -0.27 31 2.9 9 60 9 66
34 Paul George SF 1265 21 13.62 32 0.095 33 -0.90 38 -0.4 37 38 32 70
35 Michael Beasley SF 2361 23 16.10 13 0.060 65 0.37 18 -1.4 53 65 13 71
35 Reggie Williams SF 1626 25 15.30 18 0.108 25 -1.37 46 -1.6 58 58 18 71
37 Carlos Delfino SF 1590 29 13.08 44 0.103 28 0.18 22 -2.1 66 66 22 72
38 Steve Novak SF 215 28 13.81 30 0.112 20 -1.20 44 -3.6 88 88 20 74
39 Ronald Dupree SF 13 31 13.87 28 0.086 40 -0.73 35 -2.0 64 64 28 75
40 Pape Sy SF 21 23 14.64 22 0.085 41 -0.76 36 -1.7 59 59 22 77
Rank Small Forwards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
41 Peja Stojakovic SF 617 34 13.27 42 0.089 39 -0.92 39 2.3 13 42 13 78
42 C.J. Miles SF 1969 24 13.55 35 0.066 59 -1.26 45 0.3 31 59 31 80
42 Larry Owens SF 143 29 13.23 43 0.092 37 -0.89 37 -1.1 46 46 37 80
44 Patrick Ewing SF 19 27 13.58 33 0.074 46 -1.10 42 -2.2 69 69 33 88
45 Martell Webster SF 1094 25 12.80 46 0.092 36 -1.11 43 -2.0 63 63 36 89
46 Josh Childress SF 894 28 13.32 40 0.080 43 -1.59 49 -2.7 78 78 40 92
47 Jamario Moon SF 1042 31 11.58 65 0.084 42 -1.63 51 0.4 30 65 30 93
48 Derrick Brown SF 576 24 13.40 38 0.095 32 -2.23 59 -1.9 62 62 32 97
48 Mike Harris SF 16 28 13.58 34 0.072 50 -1.40 47 -2.2 70 70 34 97
48 Shawne Williams SF 1323 25 12.58 50 0.090 38 -1.73 52 -1.2 47 52 38 97
51 Omri Casspi SF 1702 23 12.60 49 0.070 51 -1.89 55 0.5 27 55 27 100
52 Trevor Ariza SF 2600 26 12.48 52 0.069 52 -0.15 28 -1.2 49 52 28 101
52 Josh Howard SF 409 31 12.73 48 0.042 77 -1.73 53 1.5 18 77 18 101
54 Austin Daye SF 1446 23 13.36 39 0.073 48 -1.81 54 -2.5 74 74 39 102
55 Maurice Ager SF 29 27 13.40 37 0.067 57 -1.61 50 -2.1 65 65 37 107
56 Dante Cunningham SF 1637 24 11.79 62 0.075 45 -2.17 57 -1.4 54 62 45 111
57 James Posey SF 839 35 8.94 85 0.069 54 -2.23 58 -1.3 52 85 52 112
58 Craig Brackins SF 33 24 12.74 47 0.059 66 -1.50 48 -2.4 71 71 47 114
59 Bobby Simmons SF 16 31 11.09 71 0.066 58 -2.26 60 -0.6 41 71 41 118
60 Chris Douglas-Roberts SF 884 25 11.96 59 0.059 67 -2.41 63 -1.5 56 67 56 122
Rank Small Forwards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
61 Ryan Gomes SF 2095 29 10.54 76 0.056 68 -2.11 56 -1.2 50 76 50 124
62 Cartier Martin SF 542 27 11.67 64 0.064 61 -3.23 77 1.0 23 77 23 125
63 Vladimir Radmanovic SF 1169 31 11.47 67 0.065 60 -2.77 72 1.5 18 72 18 127
63 Julian Wright SF 766 24 12.54 51 0.049 76 -3.33 79 0.5 28 79 28 127
65 Rodney Carney SF 336 27 12.41 54 0.068 56 -2.82 73 -2.7 77 77 54 129
66 Gary Forbes SF 791 26 12.33 55 0.064 62 -2.72 69 -3.8 89 89 55 131
67 Luke Harangody SF 640 24 11.30 68 0.060 64 -2.59 66 -3.0 83 83 64 134
67 James Johnson SF 822 24 12.43 53 0.050 73 -2.40 61 -2.8 80 80 53 134
69 Andres Nocioni SF 931 32 11.07 72 0.061 63 -2.43 64 -2.4 72 72 63 136
70 Damion James SF 403 24 11.71 63 0.040 78 -2.92 74 -1.5 55 78 55 137
70 Al Thornton SF 1383 28 12.04 57 0.051 72 -2.51 65 -3.1 84 84 57 137
72 Linas Kleiza SF 1032 27 11.30 69 0.023 87 -2.76 71 -1.0 45 87 45 140
73 Maurice Evans SF 1549 33 10.32 81 0.076 44 -2.41 62 -3.3 86 86 44 143
73 Wesley Johnson SF 2069 24 10.70 75 0.036 80 -2.64 68 -0.9 44 80 44 143
75 Gordon Hayward SF 1218 21 11.52 66 0.056 69 -2.95 75 -4.4 91 91 66 144
75 Quincy Pondexter SF 734 23 9.87 82 0.069 53 -2.74 70 -2.5 74 82 53 144
77 Lazar Hayward SF 419 25 12.16 56 0.054 70 -3.10 76 -3.6 87 87 56 146
77 Travis Outlaw SF 2358 27 10.35 80 0.037 79 -2.61 67 -1.5 57 80 57 146
79 DeMarre Carroll SF 50 25 10.41 78 0.053 71 -3.35 81 -0.6 40 81 40 149
80 Ime Udoka SF 130 34 9.83 83 0.049 74 -3.31 78 2.1 14 83 14 152
Rank Small Forwards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
81 Donte Greene SF 1127 23 10.74 74 0.031 83 -3.64 84 -0.7 43 84 43 157
82 Dominic McGuire SF 760 26 10.39 79 0.049 75 -3.33 80 -4.7 93 93 75 159
83 Al-Farouq Aminu SF 1452 21 10.46 77 0.031 82 -3.42 82 -2.7 79 82 77 161
84 Terrence Williams SF 290 24 11.14 70 -0.013 93 -3.73 85 -2.8 80 93 70 165
85 Luke Walton SF 484 31 8.59 89 0.032 81 -4.13 86 -0.1 34 89 34 167
85 Antoine Wright SF 31 27 9.19 84 0.026 84 -3.49 83 -2.5 76 84 76 167
87 Luke Babbitt SF 137 22 8.88 86 -0.010 92 -4.20 87 -2.4 73 92 73 173
87 Jason Kapono SF 111 30 8.84 87 0.025 86 -4.22 88 -2.1 68 88 68 173
89 Stephen Graham SF 958 29 7.39 92 0.025 85 -4.69 91 -2.1 66 92 66 176
90 DaJuan Summers SF 199 24 8.74 88 0.001 91 -4.75 92 -2.8 80 92 80 179
90 Jawad Williams SF 391 28 7.98 90 0.017 88 -4.34 89 -4.0 90 90 88 179
92 Sasha Pavlovic SF 362 28 7.46 91 0.016 90 -4.55 90 -4.4 92 92 90 181
93 Quinton Ross SF 353 30 5.99 93 0.017 89 -5.15 93 -0.1 33 93 33 182
Rank Power Forwards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
1 Pau Gasol PF 3037 31 22.66 3 0.222 1 4.96 1 2.1 13 13 1 4
1 Dirk Nowitzki PF 2504 33 22.71 2 0.196 2 4.52 2 8.1 1 2 1 4
3 Chris Bosh PF 2795 27 21.11 7 0.175 6 3.63 5 3.8 6 7 5 12
3 Kevin Love PF 2611 23 23.10 1 0.186 4 3.43 8 -0.4 34 34 1 12
5 LaMarcus Aldridge PF 3211 26 20.33 8 0.158 9 3.59 6 4.2 5 9 5 14
5 Kevin Garnett PF 2220 35 19.79 9 0.181 5 3.33 9 7.7 2 9 2 14
5 Zach Randolph PF 2724 30 21.60 6 0.165 7 3.58 7 2.9 10 10 6 14
8 Blake Griffin PF 3112 22 22.03 5 0.153 11 4.11 3 1.4 19 19 3 16
9 Amare Stoudemire PF 2870 29 22.20 4 0.147 13 3.67 4 0.2 27 27 4 17
10 Carlos Boozer PF 1882 30 19.41 12 0.154 10 3.23 10 1.0 21 21 10 22
10 Lamar Odom PF 2639 32 17.87 16 0.164 8 2.47 13 3.2 9 16 8 22
10 Josh Smith PF 2645 26 19.61 10 0.127 28 2.74 12 3.3 7 28 7 22
13 Paul Millsap PF 2605 26 18.81 14 0.146 16 2.11 14 3.3 7 16 7 28
14 David West PF 2451 31 19.47 11 0.137 20 2.88 11 1.6 18 20 11 29
15 Ryan Anderson PF 1424 23 18.36 15 0.189 3 1.39 18 1.3 20 20 3 33
16 Matt Bonner PF 1432 31 14.03 51 0.147 14 1.11 20 2.2 12 51 12 34
17 Elton Brand PF 2809 32 17.33 19 0.130 25 1.73 16 2.4 11 25 11 35
18 Amir Johnson PF 1853 24 17.26 21 0.147 15 0.82 23 4.8 4 23 4 36
19 David Lee PF 2634 28 19.22 13 0.131 24 1.97 15 0.1 29 29 13 39
20 DeJuan Blair PF 1734 22 17.59 18 0.137 19 0.91 22 -1.8 52 52 18 41
Rank Power Forwards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
21 Luis Scola PF 2412 31 17.62 17 0.115 36 1.68 17 0.0 30 36 17 47
22 Ersan Ilyasova PF 1505 24 15.14 40 0.131 23 0.45 26 1.6 17 40 17 49
23 Josh McRoberts PF 1597 24 15.98 37 0.142 17 0.50 25 0.1 28 37 17 53
24 Antawn Jamison PF 1842 35 17.17 24 0.091 58 1.31 19 -0.1 32 58 19 56
25 Brandon Bass PF 1980 26 16.10 35 0.148 12 0.64 24 -1.4 45 45 12 59
26 Carl Landry PF 2008 28 16.43 27 0.122 32 0.20 28 -1.5 48 48 27 60
27 Taj Gibson PF 1742 26 14.25 48 0.127 29 -0.04 37 0.2 26 48 26 66
27 Troy Murphy PF 466 31 15.55 39 0.127 27 0.93 21 -2.9 68 68 21 66
29 Patrick Patterson PF 868 22 16.83 26 0.131 22 -0.13 42 -2.0 54 54 22 68
30 Udonis Haslem PF 345 31 13.89 52 0.123 30 0.17 30 -0.9 39 52 30 69
31 Ed Davis PF 1602 22 16.06 36 0.121 33 0.04 34 -3.6 77 77 33 70
31 Kris Humphries PF 2061 26 17.19 23 0.113 38 0.09 32 -1.9 53 53 23 70
33 Jon Brockman PF 677 24 11.35 75 0.128 26 -0.39 46 0.6 24 75 24 72
33 Drew Gooden PF 860 30 16.22 30 0.109 42 0.17 29 -4.8 84 84 29 72
35 Tiago Splitter PF 738 27 15.86 38 0.140 18 -0.02 35 -3.0 70 70 18 73
36 Andray Blatche PF 2172 25 17.05 25 0.061 75 0.16 31 -1.3 43 75 25 74
37 Nick Collison PF 1524 31 12.06 67 0.123 31 -0.30 44 6.2 3 67 3 75
38 Tyrus Thomas PF 861 25 17.28 20 0.104 47 -0.04 36 -1.1 41 47 20 77
39 Channing Frye PF 2541 28 13.45 58 0.103 48 0.35 27 -0.3 33 58 27 81
40 Craig Smith PF 586 28 16.19 31 0.114 37 -1.50 59 -1.4 47 59 31 84
Rank Power Forwards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
41 D.J. White PF 685 25 16.12 34 0.133 21 -0.68 53 -1.6 51 53 21 85
42 Tyler Hansbrough PF 1535 26 16.15 33 0.111 39 -0.40 47 -2.5 59 59 33 86
43 Brian Cardinal PF 618 34 9.83 80 0.106 44 -0.30 45 1.9 15 80 15 89
43 Hakim Warrick PF 1415 29 16.16 32 0.116 35 -0.70 54 -5.3 85 85 32 89
45 Hassan Whiteside PF 2 22 14.96 42 0.101 49 -0.04 39 -2.0 55 55 39 91
46 Gani Lawal PF 2 23 15.01 41 0.101 51 -0.04 38 -2.2 56 56 38 92
46 Leon Powe PF 328 28 14.85 44 0.118 34 -1.25 57 -1.5 48 57 34 92
48 Antonio McDyess PF 1386 37 12.96 61 0.104 46 -0.41 48 0.9 22 61 22 94
49 Renaldo Balkman PF 62 27 13.81 54 0.111 40 -0.49 49 -1.4 46 54 40 95
49 Kenyon Martin PF 1233 34 13.71 55 0.092 57 -0.06 40 0.3 25 57 25 95
51 Boris Diaw PF 2778 29 13.62 56 0.089 59 -0.30 43 -1.0 40 59 40 99
52 Al Harrington PF 1665 31 14.25 49 0.069 68 -0.62 52 -0.5 35 68 35 101
52 Brandan Wright PF 379 24 16.40 28 0.106 43 -1.51 60 -2.4 58 60 28 101
54 Charlie Villanueva PF 1666 27 16.27 29 0.094 55 -0.51 50 -3.1 72 72 29 105
55 Marcus Cousin PF 18 25 14.47 45 0.092 56 -0.57 51 -2.6 61 61 45 107
56 Darrell Arthur PF 1609 23 14.95 43 0.099 52 -1.15 56 -2.4 57 57 43 108
57 Ike Diogu PF 470 28 14.36 47 0.106 45 -1.69 63 -2.6 62 63 45 109
58 Jeff Green PF 2427 25 13.52 57 0.097 53 0.06 33 -3.1 71 71 33 110
59 Joey Dorsey PF 522 28 14.04 50 0.079 61 -2.11 65 -0.9 38 65 38 111
60 Glen Davis PF 2298 26 12.64 62 0.101 50 -0.08 41 -3.0 69 69 41 112
60 Derrick Favors PF 1535 20 14.41 46 0.094 54 -1.29 58 -2.5 60 60 46 112
Rank Power Forwards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
62 Shelden Williams PF 911 28 13.05 60 0.111 41 -0.93 55 -2.8 66 66 41 115
63 Jordan Hill PF 1124 24 13.86 53 0.087 60 -1.81 64 -3.3 74 74 53 124
64 Jeff Adrien PF 196 25 13.15 59 0.074 66 -2.36 67 -1.4 44 67 44 125
65 Reggie Evans PF 798 31 12.24 66 0.075 64 -1.67 62 -0.1 31 66 31 126
66 Anthony Randolph PF 590 22 17.23 22 0.069 69 -1.57 61 -2.8 67 69 22 128
67 Derrick Caracter PF 215 23 12.45 64 0.077 62 -2.32 66 -3.5 76 76 62 130
68 Jason Maxiell PF 930 28 12.24 65 0.064 72 -2.41 68 -2.7 64 72 64 133
69 Joe Smith PF 69 36 11.50 72 0.075 65 -2.62 72 -0.6 37 72 37 137
70 Jason Smith PF 1102 25 11.33 76 0.070 67 -2.58 71 -1.2 42 76 42 138
71 Larry Sanders PF 872 23 11.87 69 0.065 70 -2.48 70 -4.2 79 79 69 140
72 Brian Cook PF 447 31 11.90 68 0.061 74 -2.85 74 -1.5 50 74 50 142
73 Samardo Samuels PF 701 23 12.59 63 0.021 86 -3.05 78 -2.7 65 86 63 143
73 Darius Songaila PF 71 33 11.80 70 0.054 78 -2.63 73 0.7 23 78 23 143
75 Juwan Howard PF 592 38 9.76 81 0.076 63 -2.47 69 -4.8 83 83 63 150
76 Darnell Jackson PF 486 26 11.51 71 0.065 71 -3.40 81 -5.4 86 86 71 152
76 Yi Jianlian PF 1112 24 11.48 73 0.031 84 -3.05 79 -3.1 73 84 73 152
78 Jared Jeffries PF 601 30 9.60 82 0.056 77 -2.92 76 1.7 16 82 16 153
78 Sean Marks PF 208 36 9.07 83 0.060 76 -2.99 77 -3.4 75 83 75 153
78 Brian Scalabrine PF 88 33 7.80 86 0.063 73 -3.14 80 -2.6 63 86 63 153
Rank Power Forwards Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
81 Brian Skinner PF 6 35 11.41 74 0.052 79 -2.87 75 -4.7 82 82 74 154
82 Ekpe Udoh PF 1030 24 10.61 78 0.042 82 -3.65 83 1.9 14 83 14 160
83 Eduardo Najera PF 372 35 8.26 85 0.047 80 -3.55 82 -0.6 36 85 36 162
84 Earl Clark PF 464 24 10.88 77 0.031 85 -3.71 84 -4.2 80 85 77 164
84 Kevin Seraphin PF 635 22 9.97 79 0.035 83 -4.20 86 -4.6 81 86 79 164
86 Malik Allen PF 178 33 7.61 87 0.043 81 -3.89 85 -4.1 78 87 78 166
87 Josh Powell PF 653 29 8.80 84 0.011 87 -4.75 87 -7.1 87 87 84 174
Rank Centers Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
1 Dwight Howard C 2935 26 25.22 1 0.229 1 6.64 1 5.7 1 1 1 2
2 Tim Duncan C 2156 35 22.41 2 0.181 5 3.83 2 5.3 2 5 2 4
3 Nene Hilario C 2291 29 19.53 8 0.190 3 3.15 3 4.3 3 8 3 6
4 Andrew Bynum C 1500 24 20.66 3 0.197 2 3.09 4 -0.9 38 38 2 7
5 Al Horford C 2704 25 20.05 5 0.177 7 2.90 5 0.4 22 22 5 12
6 Tyson Chandler C 2059 29 16.67 18 0.184 4 2.56 7 3.0 7 18 4 14
7 Yao Ming C 91 31 20.32 4 0.165 9 2.81 6 -2.6 72 72 4 15
8 Joakim Noah C 1576 26 18.20 10 0.180 6 2.54 8 1.1 16 16 6 18
9 Andrew Bogut C 2297 27 17.87 12 0.127 21 2.24 9 3.9 4 21 4 21
10 Chris Andersen C 732 33 17.05 16 0.175 8 2.15 10 1.5 13 16 8 23
11 Marc Gasol C 2586 27 17.50 13 0.147 13 1.70 13 1.9 9 13 9 26
12 Greg Monroe C 2222 21 18.31 9 0.144 15 1.47 15 -1.5 47 47 9 30
13 Marcin Gortat C 2032 27 16.90 17 0.152 12 1.53 14 -1.5 48 48 12 31
13 Shaquille O'Neal C 752 39 17.88 11 0.145 14 1.21 17 -0.1 27 27 11 31
15 Anderson Varejao C 994 29 15.31 30 0.144 16 1.37 16 1.8 10 30 10 32
16 Serge Ibaka C 2216 22 17.39 15 0.158 11 0.93 19 -1.3 45 45 11 34
17 Emeka Okafor C 2287 29 16.26 22 0.128 19 1.08 18 0.7 19 22 18 38
18 Chuck Hayes C 2079 28 14.52 40 0.129 18 0.60 21 3.4 6 40 6 39
18 Al Jefferson C 2940 27 19.91 6 0.117 28 2.13 11 -2.4 67 67 6 39
20 Jeff Foster C 940 35 13.54 47 0.131 17 0.42 23 3.6 5 47 5 40
Rank Centers Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
21 Marcus Camby C 1540 37 16.04 24 0.124 23 0.58 22 2.3 8 24 8 45
22 Brook Lopez C 2889 23 19.63 7 0.114 34 1.95 12 -2.9 78 78 7 46
23 Roy Hibbert C 2244 25 16.16 23 0.086 55 0.19 26 1.1 15 55 15 49
24 Mehmet Okur C 168 32 15.56 28 0.120 24 0.88 20 -0.2 28 28 20 52
25 Ian Mahinmi C 488 25 15.06 33 0.165 10 0.42 24 -1.9 54 54 10 57
26 Jermaine O'Neal C 431 33 15.10 32 0.102 46 0.00 27 1.5 13 46 13 59
27 Brad Miller C 1015 35 14.76 37 0.117 29 -0.40 33 1.8 11 37 11 62
28 Brendan Haywood C 1331 32 13.75 43 0.116 30 -0.10 29 -0.6 33 43 29 63
29 Omer Asik C 989 25 12.40 61 0.127 20 -0.85 44 1.6 12 61 12 64
29 Ronny Turiaf C 1141 29 13.60 44 0.114 32 -0.38 32 0.6 21 44 21 64
31 Kurt Thomas C 1178 39 10.60 79 0.119 25 -0.49 36 -0.2 29 79 25 65
32 JaVale McGee C 2193 24 17.44 14 0.113 37 -0.49 35 -2.0 56 56 14 72
33 Trevor Booker C 1063 24 15.49 29 0.118 27 -1.05 51 -1.4 46 51 27 75
34 DeAndre Jordan C 2047 23 14.63 38 0.109 39 -0.58 38 -2.3 63 63 38 77
35 Anthony Tolliver C 1362 26 13.57 46 0.103 44 -0.56 37 0.6 20 46 20 81
36 Samuel Dalembert C 1938 30 14.79 36 0.089 53 -0.87 46 0.8 18 53 18 82
36 Chris Kaman C 838 29 15.96 26 0.048 83 -0.13 30 -1.8 52 83 26 82
38 Hamed Haddadi C 168 26 15.01 35 0.100 48 -2.01 67 -0.1 26 67 26 83
38 Kendrick Perkins C 742 27 13.08 53 0.100 47 -0.43 34 -0.8 36 53 34 83
38 Chris Wilcox C 995 29 16.29 21 0.104 43 -1.04 50 -1.0 40 50 21 83
Rank Centers Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
41 Zydrunas Ilgauskas C 1145 36 13.16 52 0.113 38 -0.79 43 -1.1 43 52 38 86
41 Nazr Mohammed C 1280 34 16.31 20 0.114 33 -1.08 53 -2.6 74 74 20 86
43 Zaza Pachulia C 1244 27 13.00 55 0.119 26 -1.01 49 -1.0 39 55 26 88
43 Ben Wallace C 1238 37 13.53 48 0.094 51 -0.62 40 -0.3 31 51 31 88
45 Nenad Krstic C 1571 28 13.45 50 0.116 31 -0.86 45 -1.2 44 50 31 89
46 Erick Dampier C 815 36 12.35 62 0.125 22 -0.08 28 -2.2 62 62 22 90
47 DeMarcus Cousins C 2309 21 15.01 34 0.028 90 -0.22 31 -2.1 58 90 31 92
48 Dexter Pittman C 11 23 13.95 42 0.080 64 -0.75 41 -1.8 51 64 41 93
49 Jason Thompson C 1748 25 14.17 41 0.079 65 -1.09 54 1.0 17 65 17 95
50 Andris Biedrins C 1397 25 13.58 45 0.099 49 -0.97 47 -2.0 57 57 45 96
50 Marreese Speights C 734 24 16.62 19 0.113 36 -1.51 60 -3.2 82 82 19 96
52 Andrea Bargnani C 2353 26 16.02 25 0.063 73 0.40 25 -3.4 84 84 25 98
53 Robin Lopez C 991 23 15.19 31 0.102 45 -1.11 55 -3.6 88 88 31 100
54 Aaron Gray C 531 27 12.70 59 0.105 42 -1.35 59 -0.5 32 59 32 101
55 Jamaal Magloire C 158 33 11.85 68 0.109 40 -1.08 52 -1.8 53 68 40 105
56 Joel Przybilla C 519 32 10.67 78 0.094 50 -1.19 57 0.0 24 78 24 107
57 Chris Johnson C 138 26 12.91 56 0.092 52 -1.19 56 -2.6 71 71 52 112
58 J.J. Hickson C 2256 23 15.68 27 0.061 75 -0.61 39 -7.4 93 93 27 114
59 Garret Siler C 101 25 14.61 39 0.084 57 -1.75 65 -2.2 59 65 39 116
60 Louis Amundson C 691 29 13.07 54 0.080 63 -2.07 68 -1.0 40 68 40 117
Rank Centers Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
61 Semih Erden C 595 25 11.43 73 0.113 35 -0.97 48 -3.1 79 79 35 121
62 Joel Anthony C 1463 29 8.72 90 0.106 41 -0.76 42 -3.1 80 90 41 122
63 Kwame Brown C 1714 29 12.20 63 0.082 60 -1.59 61 -2.3 65 65 60 124
63 Hamady N'Diaye C 80 25 12.01 65 0.084 59 -1.23 58 -2.9 76 76 58 124
65 Cole Aldrich C 141 23 11.59 70 0.086 54 -1.60 63 -2.3 63 70 54 126
66 Theo Ratliff C 71 38 10.67 77 0.082 61 -2.00 66 -1.6 50 77 50 127
67 Melvin Ely C 366 33 9.83 87 0.077 66 -1.65 64 -2.2 61 87 61 130
68 Alexis Ajinca C 340 23 12.84 57 0.062 74 -2.65 77 -0.3 30 77 30 131
68 Darko Milicic C 1686 26 12.74 58 0.026 92 -2.33 73 -1.1 42 92 42 131
70 Spencer Hawes C 1718 23 13.49 49 0.060 78 -1.60 62 -2.5 70 78 49 132
71 Pops Mensah-Bonsu C 35 28 12.52 60 0.066 70 -2.14 69 -2.4 68 70 60 137
72 Tony Battie C 377 35 10.80 76 0.081 62 -2.22 72 -2.3 66 76 62 138
73 David Andersen C 373 31 12.03 64 0.060 77 -3.01 82 0.0 24 82 24 141
73 Didier Ilunga-Mbenga C 330 31 11.56 71 0.084 58 -2.17 70 -2.6 72 72 58 141
75 Fabricio Oberto C 45 36 8.46 91 0.068 69 -2.54 75 -1.6 49 91 49 144
76 Hasheem Thabeet C 373 24 10.31 82 0.084 56 -2.21 71 -2.9 75 82 56 146
77 Solomon Alabi C 59 23 11.84 69 0.038 87 -2.82 79 -2.5 69 87 69 148
77 Ryan Hollins C 1182 27 11.25 74 0.069 68 -2.41 74 -3.6 87 87 68 148
79 Etan Thomas C 82 33 11.53 72 0.070 67 -2.68 78 -4.4 91 91 67 150
80 Timofey Mozgov C 524 25 11.97 66 0.065 72 -2.84 80 -3.6 86 86 66 152
Rank Centers Pos 2011 MP Age PER Rk WS48 Rk bopSPM Rk RAPM Rk Hi Lo Tot
81 Dan Gadzuric C 462 33 11.15 75 0.052 81 -3.19 84 -0.6 34 84 34 156
82 Solomon Jones C 528 27 10.24 84 0.065 71 -2.61 76 -5.2 92 92 71 160
82 Kosta Koufos C 434 22 13.20 51 0.053 79 -3.23 86 -3.1 81 86 51 160
84 Francisco Elson C 610 35 9.95 85 0.061 76 -2.89 81 -3.3 83 85 76 164
85 Earl Barron C 305 30 10.30 83 0.026 91 -3.02 83 -1.9 55 91 55 166
86 Hilton Armstrong C 488 27 9.91 86 0.048 82 -3.57 90 -2.9 77 90 77 168
86 DeSagana Diop C 181 30 9.43 88 0.053 80 -3.55 89 -2.2 60 89 60 168
88 Nikola Pekovic C 887 26 11.93 67 0.046 85 -3.21 85 -3.9 89 89 67 170
89 Byron Mullens C 85 22 10.35 81 0.018 93 -3.37 88 -3.4 85 93 81 173
89 Johan Petro C 893 26 10.59 80 0.044 86 -3.35 87 -4.4 90 90 80 173
91 Jason Collins C 593 33 6.65 93 0.046 84 -3.79 91 -0.7 35 93 35 175
92 Kyrylo Fesenko C 456 25 8.85 89 0.034 88 -4.04 92 0.4 22 92 22 177
93 Jarron Collins C 181 33 6.72 92 0.032 89 -4.17 93 -0.8 37 93 37 181

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66 Responses to “2012 APBRmetric Player Rankings: By Position”

  1. Mike Says:

    I love bopSPM, it's my new favorite stat. RAPM probably isn't so great to use for this type of thing because of its use of prior seasons for stabilization.

  2. MikeN Says:

    I count the Celtics as having #8, 5,6,3 and 13 for a total of 35.
    Heat have 1,1,3,40 and 55 for 100.

  3. Neil Paine Says:

    #2 - Would have been nice if the #8 PG and #13 center were actually in commission for that series. Instead, the Celtics were forced to use the #26 & #45 Cs, the #60 PF, and the #27 SG (as a PG) to pick up the slack.

  4. Jason J Says:

    Interesting list, Neil. I kind of like the mix-and-match metric method.

    Gee, I sure would like to be able to look at bopSPM on the player pages and see how the best ever seasons stack up using this method. Justin. :-)

  5. Neil Paine Says:

    Justin's on vacation, you're going to have to be satisfied with this spreadsheet:

    http://www.2shared.com/document/aQCvYfrC/bopSPM.html

    I have to be honest, I actually kind of like bopSPM. It's not systematically biased toward any position; its only real statistical biases are probably toward usage and minutes per game... And you know what? I don't have a problem with that. Shockingly, it may turn out that coaches actually know what they're doing.

  6. AYC Says:

    That's awesome, Neil!

    ...But now you've given me the opportunity to poke holes in the results bopSPM produces! The first thing that jumps out to me is that Allen Iverson comes off a little too well. I sorted out the top avgs for players with at least 70 games played, and found AI's 2001 in the top 30 (virtually tied with Shaq's number for the same year! Also, it seems like the "bias" towards PG's is sorely missed; I only count 4 seasons from PG's in the top 100: 2 from CP3 and 2 from Magic. AI has 3 appearances in the top 100.

  7. AYC Says:

    PS I should say that the best thing about old-fashioned SPM in my mind is the way it values assists. I think most advanced metrics don't value them enough. (I guess I shouldn't be surprised that an SPM based on the Dean O stats has the same problem)

  8. Neil Paine Says:

    Right, but removing that heavy assist (and steal) bias from SPM basically just makes all the positions average. I think the average PG is -0.3, the average PF is +0.3, and all other positions are basically 0.0. That's a far cry from SPM, which values the average PG at something like +1.0 and the average C -0.7.

    I think an important way to evaluate any metric is to see how close it places each position to average without a position adjustment. Look at Wins Produced or Tendex/Bellotti Pts Created without a position adjustment -- the bias toward PFs and Cs is totally out of control. That's a major strike against the metric. Even SPM's bias toward PGs is a source of concern. The ideal metric should basically rank all positions equally... otherwise why would coaches have one of each type on the floor at the same time?

    That's why I think the balance bopSPM brings is a major advantage over ordinary SPM.

  9. AYC Says:

    But it seems to me that the box score is biased against PG's. Their role requires them to constantly handle and distribute the ball, which takes away from the ability to score points AND leads to more TOVs; meanwhile, big men don't have to worry about ball-handling, and their offensive rebounding helps them as scorers. Valuing assists highly seems like a good way of recognizing all the things PG's do that aren't measured in the box score. (I don't mind removing the bias for steals, because they're a pretty weak measure of defense).

    Imagine how many TOVs a guy like Dwight Howard would have if he was forced to bring the ball up the court every possession. Maybe the bias inherent to SPM just reflects the fact that PG's are the most skilled players on the court, while centers are the least skilled....

  10. AYC Says:

    I just noticed you said there's a mpg bias to bopSPM; that helps to explain AI's strong showing, I guess. I had assumed these were per 48min stats....

  11. huevonkiller Says:

    Greg Oden was #39 overall in the top 593 players.

    That's not close to reality because minutes are so important. If bopSPM has a bias towards MPG that is good. There should be some way to take into account total minutes.

  12. Jason J Says:

    Thanks, Neil.

  13. Kevin Parsley Says:

    When is O rating and d rating going to be adjusted by team.
    for Instance. just looking at Daniel Gibson. He had a + 8 net possesion on his on/off court. so even though he has horrible defensive rating (his team was last in defense. Individually he was better than most of his teammates.

    Looking at gibson as a reference im also wondering why reference has him at 114 rating when 82games has him at 110.

    Im not sure how a guy whose teams defense gets 4 points worse off court could be one of the lowest rated defenders on the team.

    http://www.82games.com/1011/10CLE2.HTM
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2011.htm

  14. huevonkiller Says:

    Andrew Bynum is #19 overall....

    Still some flaws to work out but I really like bopSPM.

  15. AYC Says:

    Nobody is bothered that bopSPM values high-volume low efficiency scorers like AI even more than PER does? This is the only metric suggesting Iverson was better than Shaq and TD in 2001.

    I checked the top 100 seasons of the 3pt era in bopSPM, PER and WS48. There were 23 seasons from PGs on the WS48 list, 7 from PG's on the PER list and just 5 from PGs on the bopSPM list (I made a mistake before; Magic has 3 seasons on the list, not two).

  16. AYC Says:

    Sorry, 18 seasons from PGs on the WS48 list. There are 23 seasons from a player averaging under 20 ppg on that list, with only one such season I can find on the SPM list (KG in 2008)

  17. Neil Paine Says:

    #15 - Just to play Devil's advocate...

    Iverson played more minutes per game, was a more integral part of the offense (by possession%), and had a lower DRtg than Shaq, on a Philly team whose efficiency differential was more than a full point better than L.A.'s. When put that way, it doesn't sound so crazy to rank AI ahead of Shaq (although this argument fails to account for the fact that Shaq's ORtg was 8 points higher than Iverson's).

    At least you can frame it that way and make a reasonably convincing case for Iverson. As I've written before, the Derrick Rose-LeBron James debate was a rehashing of Iverson-Shaq, but with Rose you can't say he played more MPG, can't say he had the lower DRtg, and can't say he played for the team with the better efficiency differential.

  18. Heretic Says:

    Neil,

    The lower DRtg argument won't really work. Iverson had a 99 DRtg on a team that had a DRtg of 98.9. Shaq in contrast had a 101 DRtg on a team that had a DRtg of 104.8. Shaq was the best defender on a poor defensive team while Iverson was at best an average defender on an elite defensive team.

  19. Neil Paine Says:

    That's a fair point, and here's another way to look at it: Using Dean's defensive stops metric, we can calculate the percentage of team stops a player recorded while on the floor. In 2001, Shaq recorded 24.1% of the stops when on the floor for a team whose defense was 1.8 pts of DRtg worse than average. Iverson recorded 19.9% of the stops while in the game for a team that was 4.1 pts of DRtg better than average... Who had the better defensive performance?

    Is it better to have a high defensive "usage" on a bad defensive team, or an average defensive usage on a good defensive team? Is there a "skill curve" effect on defense in addition to offense?

  20. Greyberger Says:

    Defensive rating for players and Stop% are a great solution to the problem of limited information, but metrics derived from play-by-play data replicate a lot of what DeanO was trying to do back then and in some cases are a significant improvement.

    Drtg and Stop% use Min% to estimate how the team's defense performed while a certain player was on the court. With PBP parsers that's available now, no need to estimate it. Just like other advanced stats like usage, a play-by-play version would be more accurate and might lead to new discoveries or attitudes.

  21. Anon Says:

    @16

    Assists are valuable, but is it more valuable than creating your own shot offensively? Passing is generally a lower risk proposition than shooting and is easier to replace than players who can ''get theirs'' on the court.

    The adjustment is fine with me.

  22. AYC Says:

    Anon, you aren't making an apples to apples comparison. Assists are objective, measurable stats. What objective stat indicates the ability to "create your own shot offensively"? Field goal attempts. What's more valuable, an assist or a field goal attempt? Just remember, a FGA doesn't have much value if you miss, so the value of a FGA is lesser when it's coming from an Iverson-type; but assists only come on made field goals, and you can argue it's the assist that makes the successful field goal.

  23. AYC Says:

    Neil, the arguments for Rose winning MVP were not strictly stat-based (all the arguments against him were). I don't remember anybody suggesting that Rose's stats were better than Lebron's. So the comparison to Shaq and Iverson in 2001 isn't analogous. An objective metric that doesn't factor in team success shouldn't be rating AI ahead of Shaq

  24. Anon Says:

    "Just remember, a FGA doesn't have much value if you miss..."

    There IS plenty of value in a miss. That's part of what APBRmetrics studies in detail - also, there's more risk inherent with the general shot attempt (there's still a coin flip chance you can miss the shot!)

    There was a post on the blog about the correlation between component metrics (Usg, Ast%, etc.) and team role. Compared to shot-creation, assists seem to be more of a function of team role/system than skill. Obviously PGs carry an important role, but I think bopSPM does a good job assigning the proper value to the assist.

  25. AYC Says:

    I didn't say there wasn't value in a miss (that's a separate argument). I asked what is more valuable, an a assist or FGA, keeping in mind that over half of all FGA are misses.

  26. Kevin Parsley Says:

    how bout a +/- defensive rating as opposed to a set number one. does stop percentage factor in opponents shooting percentage?

    Counterpart defense is so hard to gauge since players often get switched out and play multiple positions in game.

  27. Anon Says:

    "I asked what is more valuable, an a assist or FGA, keeping in mind that over half of all FGA are misses."

    And I answered that.

  28. Jason J Says:

    AYC - You know I generally agree that Assists are undervalued by metrics, but there is one big problem with weighing them heavily which Anon touched on (completely apart from your debate about the relative value of an FGA vs. an Assist).

    Some assists are of the Magic to Rambis variety or the Stockton to Ostertag variety and essential turn non-scoring threats into scorers. That’s adding tremendous value because the passer creates the points through his efforts. That is not an easily replaceable pass (John Paxson doesn’t create that opportunity in Magic’s place), and without the pass that particular score is very unlikely to occur.

    On the other hand when Shaq draws a double team and kicks the ball out to Rick Fox, and Fox swings the ball to Horry who swings the ball to Fisher who hits an open jumper as the defense fails to rotate, Robert Horry is awarded an assist. What did Horry do, really? He made the smart play by swinging the ball, but the opening was created by Shaq drawing a double team, and the long jumper was actually made by Fish. The assist in that instance is basically happenstance, and as Anon pointed out, that pass is highly replaceable. Horry’s real contribution on the play is being a legitimate threat to shoot which forced the defense to rotate off Fisher, but it all comes back to Shaquille’s ability to draw a double team in the first place.

    So if all we have to go on is boxscore data, it's very difficult to gauge the real impact of any given assist. I actually think in some instances it may make sense to weigh assists higher for PGs to try to correct this, since getting the ball to players in scoring position is their job. I have no idea how one would work out the math to make that happen though. Also that opens up debates about positions (Wade, Pippen, LeBron, West ... Point Guard / Forwards?) as well, which are a pain in the butt.

  29. AYC Says:

    Jason, what you're saying is true of any stat. A baseline fade-away swish over two defenders from Dirk is worth the same number of points as an uncontested dunk from Joel Anthony. A typical big-man is going to grab a certain percentage of rebounds just by virtue of his position on the floor. Do we try to distinguish between different types of made FGs, or Rebounds, the way you want to do with assists?

  30. AYC Says:

    I'm going to repeat something I said earlier:

    "Maybe the bias inherent to SPM just reflects the fact that PG's are the most skilled players on the court, while centers are the least skilled...."

    We all know that inch-for-inch, and pound-for-pound, point guards are the best players on the court. I'd rather have Raymond Felton than a 6'2" Dwight Howard.

  31. Neil Paine Says:

    But we're not talking pound-for-pound -- we're talking about comparing Felton to the real, 6'11" Dwight Howard.

    Any metric that systematically overrates a specific position is implicitly saying that coaches should play more guys from that position and less from another position. For instance, original SPM implies that teams should be playing more 3-guard lineups than we actually see. Conversely, something like Wins Produced (without a position adjustment) would say teams need to play more centers and power forwards. (As it is, even with the position adjustment it just ends up valuing the PGs whose stats most resemble those of PFs and Cs.)

    Since coaches at every level insist on playing a relatively equal number of players from each position, it's pretty safe to assume that systematic overrating of certain positions is a failure of the metric, not the entirety of organized basketball.

  32. AYC Says:

    Honest question: SPM is based on regression analysis of actual plus/minus right? So which version of SPM is closer to the actual numbers?

  33. Jason J Says:

    I agree with the point regarding rebounds. Obviously players positioned near the basket are in position to impact rebounding more, but as far as points scored goes, what your talking about is degree of difficulty. I'm not sure that's a direct correlation to the assist example I cited.

    Does the layup Rambis makes because Magic gets him open have less value than the skyhook Kareem hits over a set defense? Not really. Is it inherently more replaceable? Yes. So from that perspective you've got to consider Kareem's ability to score more important than Kurt's. However, I think this is where usage comes into play as a means of identifying who is scoring easy ones on the talent of Magic and who is scoring easy, moderate, and tough ones. It's difficult to have a high usage and take only easy or open shots.

    I'm sure the same is true of assists. Players like Magic and Nash who get a lot of assists obviously are creating more and therefore probably better opportunities than the Robert Horry types who are swing-passing their way to stats. Maybe what we need to do is find a balanced way to add more value to assist% to account for the notion that a high rate of assists indicates a certain higher level of value to assists produced.

    Also don't be too quick to undervalue the specific skillsets necessary to play great big man basketball. Sure you'd take Felton over 6' 2" Dwight, but would you take 6'11" Kevin Johnson over Hakeem? I wouldn't.

  34. AYC Says:

    I don't see how degree of difficulty is any different for shooting vs passing; there are easy shots and hard ones, just as there are easy passes an hard ones.

  35. Jason J Says:

    The point, in my mind, is that it's not a difficult-to-make pass or shot that we want to be able to quantify and assign credit for - not really - it's about having the ability to create a shot for others or for oneself. Does it matter how tricky the fadeway shot or no-look pass is? No. It matters that the individual getting the bulk of the credit for the basket actually has the biggest impact on the play.

    Let's go back to the Showtime Lakers again. Scott tosses a crappy entry pass to Kareem, who catches the ball at 12 feet and still hits his hook shot. Kareem should get the bulk of the credit on that play. He's covered. The pass didn't lead to an open or easy shot. But Scott is likely (depending on the stat-keeper) to get credit for the assist anyway. Magic gets a rebound, pushes the ball up court, draws the lone defender, and hits AC in stride for a fastbreak layup. Good on AC for running his lane and finishing, but Magic made that play happen by orchestrating the break. IMO Magic deserves the bulk of the credit for the basket even if he didn't throw a one handed no look pass and fake two defenders out of their Converse.

    What I'm suggesting is that we've got Usage in place as a means of determining which players tend to create their own shots and giving them extra credit for doing so. I'm fine with that. It makes sense, and smart people assure me that the math is solid. What we need is a method to do the same for players who have a high assist rate, since racking up high assists per possession is a good indicator that the player is out there creating a lot of opportunities for his teammates and not just capitalizing on the ability of others to create openings.

  36. AYC Says:

    I believe Hollinger uses assists in his calculation of usage.... I've suggested before that perhaps assists should be weighted exponentially, so that a player's 10 apg is recognized as more than just twice as valuable as an average of 5 per game. For instance, 5^1.15 woulf be worth 6.4, while 10^1.15 would be worth 14.1

  37. Anon Says:

    From my standpoint, "assist guys" are easier to replicate and also guards than guys who can create their own offense. Think about it - a guy like Rondo (who is at times a great player) is a liability when teams sag off of him to stay on their assigned covers and dare the Celtics PG to get his own shot. Some of the most successful teams in recent memory lacked a true "assist guy" (Phil Jackson's Bulls/Lakers, anyone?). Alot of teams who use a true PG still rely on their premier "go-to" scorer when they need to generate offense; by virtue of his ability to get his own shot he BECOMES a point guard in a sense. Teams come over to double him and he finds open players either directly or via the hockey assist. Even missed shots are ripe pickings for teammates who can crash the offensive boards.

    You can run systems that advocate good ball movement and get players open, regardless of your PG. It's harder to get players who can put the ball through the hoop at will.

  38. AYC Says:

    Look, the boxscore stats favor bigmen and volume scorers. I don't think anybody who's being honest can deny that. A metric like SPM uses the boxscore stats as proxies for a player's true value. There is no stat that directly measures ball-handling ability or decision-making; assists and TOVs are the only stats that remotely touch on PG skills. So weighting assists as more valuable makes sense. It's not as if the old SPM overrated assist men the way WP overrates rebounders... John Stockton isn't even a top 30 player alltime using SPM.

    I disagree with the ideological assumption that all positions have to be equally valuable. Of course centers have to provide some value, or they wouldn't be on the court, but why assume they bring equal value? Generally speaking, the centers are usually the worst players on the court. They provide something no guard could substitute (size!), but often that's all they bring to the table. Great bigmen like Dwight are so valuable in part because they are so rare. Anon mentions the Bulls winning w/o a real point guard, but Jordan and Pippen were both more than capable of playing that role; meanwhile, we all know Luc Longley was the weakest starter on those teams....

  39. Anon Says:

    AYC, you can't arbitrarily assign more value to assists because you "feel" PGs are getting shafted. There's actual data you can look that that suggests assists aren't as rare of a commodity as scoring. And centers aren't as good as point guards in general? How you figure that? Once upon a time they were THE premier players on the court!

    The Bulls example illustrates my point. Those teams didn't use a pure point - they relied more on a pass-friendly system and creating assist chances by virtue of MJ's (and also Pip's) scoring prowess.

  40. AYC Says:

    Anon, don't forget where the conversation started. We were comparing SPM to bopSPM. The value given to assists by SPM is based on regressions of what stats predict RAPM. That's not arbitrary.

    Jason suggested we need a usage-type stat for the valuation of assists, and I suggested that using exponential weights might accomplish that, giving an arbitrary example. So what? Arbitrary examples can serve a worthwhile purpose; I didn't say we should actually use those specific numbers.

  41. huevonkiller Says:

    #18, #23 I concur that Shaq was a superior defender, and obviously a better overall player. A counterpart defense is something I always want to consider, defensive rating is very team-oriented. A more nuanced bopSPM would give Shaq a larger edge statistically, if defense was properly weighed.

    I did notice in 2001 though, that Shaq's offensive rating was 114.1 and his %possession was 31.3. Allen Iverson in 2001 was 106.3 and 33.8 respectively. Iverson played 42 mpg to Shaq's 39.5 mpg.

    So Shaq is a great offensive player but he's not Prime Tracy McGrady offensively. The problems with bopSPM and many other stats occur in defense.

  42. AYC Says:

    That's a pretty huge gap in ORtg, while the difference in usage and mpg isn't that big. Also, AI had a TS% of .518 that year, was Shaq was at .574 TS%. AI didn't even have a big advantage in assists; he averaged 3.9 ast/36, while Shaq had 3.4 ast/36

  43. huevonkiller Says:

    If one accepts the theory that MPG is more important than total minutes played, then you get the following result:

    One MPG is not analogous to 1 offensive rating point. Iverson should have a 108.8 offensive rating once you convert to Shaq's %possession. 108.8 O-rating is 95.35% of 114.1 o-rating. Yet Shaq's 39.5 MPG is only 94.05% percent of Iverson's 42.0 mpg. So Iverson appears to have a slight edge.

    The point of bopSPM is to not adjust for "per 36". Because reality says Iverson is playing 42 mpg. And Iverson played at a slightly lower pace as well, throwing off the per 36 a little.

    ~~~~~~

    However I do agree that total minutes should be taken into account, because Shaq's 2924 total minutes was 98.15% of Iverson's total minutes.

  44. AYC Says:

    Did I miss something? I thought statheads were in agreement that per minute stats were better than per game stats for measuring a player's true value. Pace adjusted, per minute stats are what tell us that Jeff Green ISN'T a better player than K. Perkins just because he scored 15ppg in OKC. I also thought statheads were in agreement that inefficient high-volume scorers like Iverson are overrated by the general public; yet now we're supposed to embrace a metric that values AI even more than PER does? A metric that puts him in the same range as Magic as a player?? Btw, if we're going by per game stats, Wilt is the greatest player of all-time by a mile; sorry, MJ!

  45. Hoops Maestro Says:

    "Assists are objective, measurable stats."

    Oh really? I thought they were subjectively assigned, and often given to guys just for passing the ball to someone who made a long jumper.

  46. Hoops Maestro Says:

    "I thought statheads were in agreement that per minute stats were better than per game stats for measuring a player's true value. Pace adjusted, per minute stats are what tell us..."

    I think the pace adjustment is more important than the per-minute adjustment. If a team gets 10 or 20 percent more possessions because the play at a faster pace (or in a faster-paced era), obviously those stats need to be adjusted.

    Per minute adjustments are valid, but guys like Wilt who play a ton of minutes should get credit too -- they are replacing the minutes that a far less skilled bench player would have been on the floor.

  47. Jason J Says:

    #46 - True that playing more minutes (if you play them well) is valuable, but sometimes it simply points to the fact that a team isn't that good. Jordan in '91 wasn't playing appreciably worse than in the late '80s, but he played significantly fewer minutes because the '91 Bulls could build bigger leads and buy him more time to rest.

  48. huevonkiller Says:

    We're talking about...(practice? ok bad joke lol)... Offense, not their overall rankings.

    #44

    First, Iverson is better than Rose he's not just some player. You have arbitrarily decided against believing this.

    We're having this discussion because you are not making congruent comparisons. Previously, you claimed the disparity in MPG should not be enough to overcome Shaq's greatness, but it does. You were thrown off by the three digit scale BOP offensive rating uses, compared to the 2 digit scale in MPG (1 mpg does not equal 1 offensive rating point). Further, Neil has already provided a usage-efficiency tradeoff in past articles to adjust for Iverson's extra possessions.

    You are also making a different argument, that bopSPM is flawed. That is another matter and the examples you have provided do not seem nuanced. Not every lower usage, higher efficiency player is better than their ballhog counterpart. See Magic Johnson versus Kobe Bryant. I think Kobe is the best Laker of all time, beating Shaq due to career length.

    You are also underrating Iverson because he plays an awkwardly high amount of MPG, and plays in a 103 defensive rating environment. Magic Johnson and Derrick Rose play in a 108 offensive rating environment. So you're not providing a full context.

    The reason why Shaq is loved by PER, is because of his massive rebounding/defensive stats in *conjunction* with his great scoring output. So bopSPM should be revamped defensively to better reflect Shaq's greatness. Offensively you have not identified why bopSPM should be changed. Shaq's offensive rating in his top 6 PER seasons is only 115 on 30-32% possessions. Offensively speaking, Shaq's peak season is not better than various perimeter players.

    I'll bring this back to Derrick Rose. Iverson is more durable than he is. Iverson plays in a tougher era defensively, and in the same era as Shaq so your Wilt comparison was not appropriate. Iverson is a superior offensive player. You at least embrace some BOP stats which is cool, but if you focus on just one side of the ball you will not understand the game. It is why you resort to intangibles in some cases.

    #47

    Well that seems incorrect. Jordan's efficiency per possession in 91 was never recreated in other seasons. For the most part one’s efficiency lowers as minutes increase, even if it is just a bit.

    ~
    And on a last note:

    BopSPM might be the best stat on basketball-reference.

    1 Adjusts for league environment, 2)Not biased to any position, 3) BOP stats and % possession, 4) Minutes per game component, 5) plus minus component.

    Only has a couple of flaws: Oden-Bynum types, and Rose/Iverson types that are benefiting from great team defense. Defense is a bit harder to capture.

  49. Jason J Says:

    #47 - Not sure you understood the point of my comment (46). I was stating that Chicago didn't player Jordan as many minutes per game in '91, even though he was as good as ever and hence better than any possible replacement player, because they were able to maintain leads, which had not been the case in prior years.

    By contrast his second best WS/48 was '88 where he had to play 6 more minutes per game for the team to win 11 less games.

    Point being that while MP is a very important stat, it doesn't always speak to a player's abilities so much as it does to the team's needs. Obviously that's just one example. In other cases it's a matter of players gassing or being foul prone that limits their abilities to play tons of minutes. Or they just aren't that good. That crops up a lot too.

  50. AYC Says:

    Huevon, nobody said anything about Rose; you're trying to rehash an argument from months ago that has nothing to do with the question at hand: which is better, SPM or bopSPM? In THIS discussion, I've compared Iverson to Shaq and Magic, both of whom have much better stats than AI or Rose, based on CW and every advanced metric besides bopSPM.

    Neil, if you're listening, I'm still hoping for an answer to the question I posed in #32. Which version of SPM is closer to the actual plus minus numbers? Is there a "bias" towards point guards in those numbers?

  51. huevonkiller Says:

    #50

    The majority of my previous post is not about Rose though, nor was it my intention. Further I don‘t think I need to wait for anyone to mention him first, with all due respect AYC. It was just an example….

    I'm going to list it out again since you don't want to read what I actually wrote.

    1. Rose was brought up to put Iverson's skills in perspective (a popular MVP winner vs. a hated “inferior“ MVP). I wasn’t really trying to go after your Rose fandom/appreciation/whatever, but you're making Iverson sound like he's not even close to Shaq offensively. That's not the case since Iverson is a more durable version of Rose, and clearly better. Neil has continuously posted a usage-efficiency tradeoff by the way, you can stop wondering about that now.

    "I've compared Iverson to Shaq and Magic, both of whom have much better stats than AI or Rose, based on CW and every advanced metric besides bopSPM. "

    Not really, you have been confusing yourself throughout this debate.

    A) by claiming there wasn't a large enough gap in MPG, B) by mixing defensive stats with offensive, C)implying I haven’t adjusted for a usage-efficiency tradeoff when making that Perkins comment, D) not using fine details like league d-rating environment when comparing Iverson, E) the Wilt comment that doesn’t apply because Iverson is from the same era, F) claiming I am only using “one" stat (MPG/Orate/%possession/league environment are the most advanced stats offensively), G) vaguely referring to other stats irrespective of context (TS% and assists).

    Another example, you do know Tracy McGrady is possibly the third greatest offensive player of all time in his prime? These are the kind of details you gloss over.

    2. PER is rewarding Shaq for his massive defensive stats in addition to his "offense". BOP Offensive rating clearly shows he’s a great offensive player, but his peak is not in the top 5 of all time (not a great pure point rating is probably why).

    Even Hollinger has a “PER Value” stat that accounts for minutes. He clearly does think minutes matter, seems you‘re not aware of that. Iverson’s freakishly high MPG puts him on Shaq’s level offensively. Iverson’s mega-Rose numbers are very valuable for his team actually.

    Another fact about PER, PER might underrate perimeter players because it uses team assisted field goal%, not individual %. Meaning Iverson creates more field goals than PER gives him credit for.

    3. Also I concur with #37, just for the record. This is not directly related but I like the position adjustment in bopSPM.

    #49

    I understand that he plays less minutes due to those circumstances. However because of those circumstances, he also benefits from that as well.

  52. AYC Says:

    Can I have some of what you're smoking?

  53. Neil Paine Says:

    #50 - This week I did a 2nd pass at bopSPM using suggestions from Nathan Walker of The Basketball Distribution. I included an ortg*pctpos interaction in the regression, and added a team defense component... I'll try to post something on that next week if I can.

    To answer the question, the "original" SPM is still more accurate on offense than bopSPM, but the newest bopSPM is a much better predictor of defensive +/- than original DSPM. In the aggregate, the new bopSPM is slightly better at predicting a player's overall APM than original SPM is, and has a much less pronounced bias toward/against certain types of players.

  54. huevonkiller Says:

    If you don't want to have a mature discussion that's fine, but you're either lazy or not capable of supporting your position. You have a pretty dumb history of supporting people because you *feel* like it, not because you possess intelligent knowledge to support yourself. What an immature response.

    Wilt, mog, Rose, Magic vs Iverson, you failed pretty ugly there. You don't understand basic concepts about bopSPM.

    P.S.- If you don't believe me about PER look up "Deepak" on the APBR forum and his PER adjustments. Perimeter players are underrated offensively with PER. Your posts are half-hearted in this thread dude.

  55. huevonkiller Says:

    *mpg

    They hacked the previous APBR forum unfortunately. Deepak also goes by durvasa, and I haven't heard of him since April I think. If you're going to criticize me fact check first. :]

  56. AYC Says:

    Thanks Neil. It seems to me that the Dean O based stats are great for measuring defense, but not so great for offense. Is it feasible to mix and match the two (OSPM and bopDSPM)?

    PS Huevon, I gave you a chance, but I'm going back to ignoring your posts. You need to work on your reading comprehension, and learn to stay on topic....

  57. Neil Paine Says:

    #56 - I think the results of the new bopOSPM are actually pretty good at measuring offense. It's less usage-centric, but still rewards players for combining high usage with high efficiency. I uploaded a file with regular season (but not playoff) stats since 1978, check it out:

    http://www.2shared.com/document/EIveqK8d/bopSPM.html

  58. Neil Paine Says:

    Also, you'll be happy to see:

    Player.....Year....bopOSPM....bopDSPM....bopSPM
    O'Neal.....2001....6.94.......1.17.......8.11
    Iverson....2001....5.97.......0.31.......6.28
  59. AYC Says:

    Awesome again Neil! Just did the same sort I did before, and this method seems to produce much better results based on a quick glance. And I guess I should be cutting you more slack, since this seems to be a work in progress

  60. AYC Says:

    PS Any chance you could post a spreadsheet with the original SPM so we can compare all 3?

  61. huevonkiller Says:

    Neil aw don't be disingenuous like that....

    Player.....Year....bopOSPM
    Iverson....2006....7.71
    O'Neal.....2000....7.46

    I said Iverson is a better offensive player, not overall. Definitely I got the year wrong, but I didn't believe in MPG though, #43 sets me up as a devils advocate. Make a better bopSPM next time from the start. PER is still slanted towards perimeter players when you adjust to Deepak's version.

    The facts are what they are, AYC is not capable of a factually correct argument if the metrics get complex, and he doesn't like the player in question.

  62. huevonkiller Says:

    #57

    I like the new bopSPM too, but I'm just wondering out of curiosity what was the point of the first bopSPM? It would be helpful to know if you don't actually believe in these stats beforehand.

    #56

    I'm being very nice to you believe me. Out of respect for Neil's forum and his rules.

    I guess you're not aware but, I am the person that wrote #54. Not an impostor that was actually me. So yeah...... *shrugs*

    Bye. :] You're acting like we were dating or something lol.

  63. Neil Paine Says:

    #62 - After posting the first version, I got some useful feedback and ideas for new variables. Nothing wrong with that, that's how it gets more accurate.

  64. huevonkiller Says:

    Yeah that seems like an objective approach to take.

    Don't get me wrong I appreciate the additional evidence.

  65. Anon Says:

    "It seems to me that the Dean O based stats are great for measuring defense, but not so great for offense."

    Didn't the BoP stats put prime Shaq ahead of prime Iverson in the first place?

  66. huevonkiller Says:

    #65

    Anon you are correct, but the difference was never that monstrous for 2006 Iverson. These metrics show that.

    After adjusting for offensive rating above league average, usage rate, and MPG, Iverson came out on top offensively.

    4.85 offensive rating above league average, +4.4 %possession more than Shaq, add both numbers (usage-efficiency tradeoff). Plus the 3 more MPG; and there you have it.