224 Responses to “The Bird-Dirk Advanced Stat-off”

1. huevonkiller Says:
   May 24th, 2011 at 10:34 am

   #176 Sean I'm not "Creating" anything.

   I'm using real life examples to show how foolish your views are. The Lakers are a perfect example of why no one should listen to two biased celtic fans.

2. huevonkiller Says:
   May 24th, 2011 at 10:38 am

   #195

   Yeah for sure.

3. dbm Says:
   May 24th, 2011 at 11:08 am

   I did not mean to take the discussion down a sidetrack. Back to the original point: Dirk is creeping up on Bird, and continues to be one of the most underrated all-time greats (although the underrated part might not last long).

4. khandor Says:
   May 24th, 2011 at 1:27 pm

   Dbm,

   It is truly unfortunate when certain individuals like "Slimebucket" and "Anon" demonstrate an inability to follow along as a complicated strand develops within a specific thread, like this one now is ... in part, because you mentioned the name of Mr. Russell, and my recognition of him as the authentic GOAT, when it comes to evaluating properly the team game of basketball.

   My sincere sympathies go out to them [and to any others who might also fit into the same category].

   ------------------

   Dirk has definitely evolved into a terrific PF-C who will one day be listed amongst the greats of all-time.

5. Murph Says:
   May 24th, 2011 at 4:53 pm

   ONe thing to consider is playoff numbers. I think you'll quickly see that Dirk's playoff numbers are superior almost across the board to Bird's. And yes, I am a HUGE Bird fan. But, you have to recognize greatness when it slaps you upside the head.

6. AYC Says:
   May 24th, 2011 at 5:56 pm

   Neil, what are the postseason SPM numbers for Nowitzki and Bird? I expect the gap between them is narrowed, but I wouldn't assume Dirk rates higher based on that metric.

7. sean Says:
   May 24th, 2011 at 6:56 pm

   @201...

   You're NOT 'creating' anything? You took something that I DIDN'T say, then attributed the opposite to me as if it was MY view about 'defense'.

   E.g., because I didn't mention enough about defense---my view muat be that it doesn't matter.

   Superb.

   OF COURSE defense matters. But don't let that get in the way of you making a fool of yourself. I'm rather enjoying it.

8. Cort Says:
   May 24th, 2011 at 11:42 pm

   did anyone else notice how many steps LBJ took on his shot from the circle that made it 97-91 in OT in game 4 of the ECF? nice shot, but he took at least 3 steps as the last big slide step allowed him balance to get that shot off and make it. yet no one mentions it on TV or in post-game analysis.

9. Anon Says:
   May 24th, 2011 at 11:54 pm

   Same here Cort.

   Not the reason the Heat won though.

10. Sean Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 9:04 am

    @ 208 & 209...

    Yep. I hate the officiating in the NBA. The traveling rules are pitiful. But, it's how they call it in that league now. I think extra steps and hops in the lane in particular are forgiven------and to LeBron's CREDIT, he may take more advantage of this silly non-enforcement of what many of us KNOW is traveling than anyone. It's not LeBron's fault that the NBA does this.

    Like Marvin Hagler after his middleweight fight with Vito Antefeurmo (sp?) when asked about his OBVIOUS head butting that eventually caused the fight to be called on cuts: 'It's NOT illegal if they don't call it.'

    LeBron James WAS called for an offensive foul at the end of regulation in a tie game (which WAS a good call---but it showed the officials weren't trying to just let him do anything)------that I don't think Michael Jordan ever gets called for an offensive foul in that spot, JMO. Tough to picture Bird getting whistled for doing that to Scott Hastings in the Garden, too.

    I DON'T think LeBron James is getting preferential superstar treatment in these playoffs, but rather the league (for a while now, IMO) has 'adapted' what they consider 'traveling' to some interpretation that seems to suit LeBron James' manner of ball handling PERFECTLY.

    Whether it's something the league did on purpose to 'free up their newest torch bearer' is up for debate, but IMO, the league under David Stern has SEEMED to do similar things before. My best example would be liberating what a player could do (offensive foul-wise when handling the ball on the low block) when Shaq 'needed' more liberal rules so he didn't foul out on 6 offensive fouls every night. The NBA tweaked the rules, and what were really fouls practically every time Shaq dribbled then slammed into someone repeatedly to edge closer top the basket (and you couldn't touch him---just ask Arvidas Sabonis in the Western Conference Finals in Game #7)--------became legal.

    LeBron's manner of ball handling is so often traveling. The league has just decided that it isn't anymore. But I don't think LeBron is getting no-calls where others are getting whistled.

    I don't think there was an advantage for LeBron and Miami. The rules are just screwey now. (Though it could be purposely to 'free up' LeBron's game). JMO.

11. Murph Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 9:42 am

    ... I don't have all the numbers mostly because I'm at work and don't have the time. But, interestingly enough, Dirk's Playoff WS/48 is .211 and his PER is 25.0. Bird's WS/48 in the playoffs is .173 and his PER is 21.4. That's a sizable difference for 2 guys that have played in as many playoff games as Dirk and Bird have.

12. khandor Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 11:34 am

    Murph,

    If/when you get a chance, please look up the WS per minute played and PER per minute played for Bird and Dirk in the playoffs. Those stats might be very interesting as well.

13. Rolf Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 11:48 am

    http://baseballcomeback.blogspot.com/

14. Murph Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    One thing to consider is the way the game was played in the 80's compared to during Dirk's career. Scoring is down considerably now compared to then.. So when you look at Dirk's playoff scoring compared to Bird's, it should impress you all the more.

    And then you get to efficiency. Bird was one of many Hall of Famers/All Stars on those Celtics teams. Dirk has played alongside 2 future Hall of Famers that were not in their prime. What does that say about Dirk's efficiency? He's far and away the main focus of defenses, but they still cannot stop him. Even though he's the main focus of defenses, his numbers are still better than Bird's in the playoffs. Dirk doesn't have a Kevin McHale or a Robert Parrish.. He's barely even had a Dennis Johnson quality of a scorer on his team the past decade. At other times, Dirk and Jason Terry were the only guys that could hit an outside shot..

    It's truly amazing what Dirk has done with the supporting cast that he has had over the years. This year's cast is better, but it's far from one of the best teams assembled in the history of the NBA. I'm not even sure how highly it would rate in the 2010-2011 season. So much of what they are accomplishing is because of Dirk. And that has always been the case. For the past 6-7 years, this team probably wouldn't win 25-30 games without Dirk. But with him, they're a 50+ win team every season. And what does Dirk do once the playoffs roll around, he steps up his game even further.

15. huevonkiller Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    #207

    You're having reading comprehension problems.

    I said the Lakers completely destroy every stupid offensive theory you have thrown out here. Your ideas are subjective nonsense, and they are a perfect example of why. This isn't just about defense.

    I don't care that you think defense "matters", you have decided to ignore the reason a majority of these teams struggle.

16. Anon Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    Good write up Murph.

    Let's not act as if all Dirk does is score either. He rebounds similar to Bird, and while you're not going to mistake as some shut-down defender he's not useless on that end either (look at the RAPM numbers for Dirk). He's an all-around player and not merely a scorer.

17. Sean Says:
    May 25th, 2011 at 10:49 pm

    @ #215...

    You are so irritable. Why? Because some people choose to discuss things that you cannot quantify to your liking? You're like a child throwing a tantrum when people want to discuss something that is not on your 'list'. The 'subjective nonsense' that you loathe exists nonetheless. You seem like you just want to pretend it doesn't exist because current advanced metrics do not account for certain things completely. They still exist... I honestly don't know why you behave so poorly when somebody talks about it/ them.

    It's childish to call things that you don't like 'nonsense' and 'stupid'.

    I assume you're young---because no grown man acts like this... but I don't think you're 3, either.

    Your behavior is ridiculous.

    I don't CARE what you don't want others to talk about. You seem to have a dysfunctionately inflated sense or self-worth. And you have a totally distorted sense of how much you know about what anybody else thinks about something. And I'm not buying.

18. huevonkiller Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 6:42 am

    Why don't you stick to the subject in this discussion? My comments are about your views/ideas and I think they are really dumb. You take it way too personal.

19. Sean Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 7:09 am

    @ 218---I know you think they're 'really dumb'. I think your scope of discussion is really limited. And your irritibility when someone ventures outside your limited scope is unnecessary, IMO.

    Out of respect for everyone else here, I'm not going to continue this pitiful discussion with you. It doesn't do the board any good.

20. huevonkiller Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 7:15 am

    Why is it pitiful? Because you're so mad you can't control yourself enough to stay on subject?

21. Sean Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 7:33 am

    Dirk was 60/ 62 from the free throw line in the series. Wow.

22. KH Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    My personal feeling is there is not all that much seperating the 10-20 players ever so its not really suprising to me that Nowitzki stands up well in comparison to Bird and maybe even grades out slightly better just looking at pure scoring. That being said having watched both of them play extensively Bird's rates a solid edge based on his wizardlike passing ability in my opinion. I really don't think you can quantify perfectly how much a passer of Bird's level adds to a offense. I know its a cliche but there are things like hockey assists in basketball. Great passes that lead to other people getting an assist. Bird had to have many of those. Bird was also a better defender then Nowitzki. Fun discussion, and makes me appreciate Dirk even more, but I'm sticking with Larry Legend.

23. Murph Says:
    May 26th, 2011 at 2:51 pm

    KH, I don't think you can measure how much easier it is to be a wizard like passer when you're surrounded by future Hall of Famers. It definitely makes it easier.

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    November 2nd, 2011 at 1:40 pm

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