Comments on: Active Hall of Famers http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574 NBA & ABA Basketball Statistics & History Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:56:04 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.6 By: hemosiderosis liver http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574&cpage=2#comment-54142 Sun, 20 Nov 2011 02:03:02 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-54142 I don't even know how I finished up here, but I assumed this put up used to be good. I do not understand who you might be however definitely you're going to a well-known blogger should you aren't already. Cheers!

]]>
By: Dario Rossotto http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574&cpage=2#comment-50032 Fri, 03 Jun 2011 14:11:47 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-50032 Thank you so much for providing individuals with such a wonderful chance to check tips from this site. It's usually so brilliant and jam-packed with fun for me personally and my office acquaintances to search your site a minimum of three times in one week to find out the fresh issues you will have. Of course, I am also certainly fascinated concerning the wonderful guidelines you serve. Certain 1 tips in this posting are unequivocally the most suitable I've had.

]]>
By: MikeN http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574&cpage=2#comment-40460 Sat, 22 Jan 2011 16:00:04 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-40460 Jordan vs LeBron, pay no heed to Bill Simmons' argument that with the new rules Jordan would average 45 ppg today. What this means is that Kobe and Lebron 'back in the day' would be scoring at best 20 ppg.

]]>
By: Joe Krupnick http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574&cpage=2#comment-39698 Sat, 15 Jan 2011 23:47:12 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-39698 Excellent point on hand size. Dr. J's hands were once measured at 12'' from start of palm to finger tips, and I suspect that Jordan's hands are not much smaller. This would certainly make a huge difference on tricky shots, passes, dunks, and rebounds, and I've often wondered if it might even have a more general impact on general shooting efficiency. Is there an argument, perhaps, that bigger hands=better control of ball=better control of shots? Anyway, the point remains, that like height, you can't teach hands.

]]>
By: Jason J http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574&cpage=2#comment-39496 Thu, 13 Jan 2011 18:52:20 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-39496 60 - Good point. When asked to compare MJ and Kobe, Phil Jackson has often sited Jordan's larger hands as a significant advantage. Bird's large, strong hands were credited for a lot of his tricky shots and passes by one of his coaches (can't remember the reference on that one - might have been college).

]]>
By: Mac http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574&cpage=2#comment-39485 Thu, 13 Jan 2011 16:14:39 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-39485 Something that hasn't been mentioned yet here, and doesn't fit the definitions of athleticism being used, is hand size. It may sound silly (and hopefully not like I have a fetish), but I thought of it immediately when I read this: "We've all seen some of today's prime athletes fail terribly at making that freethrow line dunk (Gerald Wallace, Jason Richardson)." The reason that Jordan, Dr. J, and certain others make that dunk look easy is hand size. Being able to palm a basketball as easily as most of us could grab a softball makes up for a few inches in vertical leap, no problem. A far larger percentage of current and past NBA players than most of us probably suspect have the pure jumping ability to make that dunk.

Rajon Rondo is a great example of a modern player who has above average athleticism for his position but would not likely be able to perform at anything near his current level without his extraordinary hands. They give him the control to pull off certain ball fakes that most players are either not physically capable of (at least not without significant risk of losing the ball), as well as increasing his control on passes and when finishing around the rim.

With this in mind, spend a few minutes watching just the most famous highlights of the three players I mentioned, and you'll quickly see that hands are more important than hangtime in nearly all of their signature moves. Combine that with elite athleticism (and the mind to effectively coordinate all of their abilities) in Jordan and Erving's cases and you have a clearer picture of why they so often seemed superhuman. Travis Outlaw is one of the most insane leapers I've ever seen on a basketball court, but he doesn't have the rest of the tools to use that ability to anything resembling its full potential. Even if future generations somehow made MJ, Dr. J, and Rondo look slow and earthbound by comparison, they'd still have that rare, era transcending gift of huge hands to set them apart. ;^)

]]>
By: Joe Krupnick http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574&cpage=2#comment-39298 Wed, 12 Jan 2011 02:14:40 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-39298 @58,

Agreed. There's certainly no way to make this an exact science. I'm just trying to think of methods that might make things quantitatively more defensible.

The era-specific HOF percentages Neil introduced are quite interesting, especially when compared to the relatively flat slope when you look at similar figures for baseball, but it's hard to argue that it captures anything super substantive.

But, to go back to the point about efficiency, I've always wondered what to make of the astronomical increase in player heights over the years. Since 1960, 20-40 year-old American male heights have increased, what, maybe 1 or 1.5 inches tops? Compared to NBA players who were are now, on average, maybe 4 or 5 inches taller. To say nothing of the tremendous crowding at the right tail, with maybe 15-20% of players now 7 feet or above. This is clearly unexplained by demographic changes, and if you agree that all other things equal the taller the better, then you're left with some form of efficiency argument, that some relatively significant fraction of potential players in the 1960s were doing something else with their lives.

I'd be curious to see how the height distribution has changed over the years, with a hunch that means have increased steadily and perhaps discontinuously since the big jump in the '60s and that std. deviations have probably decreased.

]]>
By: Greyberger http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574&cpage=2#comment-39284 Tue, 11 Jan 2011 23:25:22 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-39284 Great post, 57, but what you propose at the end is a real onion and maybe not so easy. Beyond FT%, looking at player statistics wouldn't have the broad sweep of history feel to it with caveats like two expansions and key rule changes in fairly recent history. If the case is just from 1979 onward I'm not sure that's as dramatic or satisfying.

]]>
By: Joe Krupnick http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574&cpage=2#comment-39280 Tue, 11 Jan 2011 22:32:51 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-39280 Middy et. al,

To engage the question more concretely, the point I make about aesthetic (rather than athletic) changes is also to revisit an argument made in an earlier post, that basketball is a sufficiently complex game that athleticism alone (narrowly-defined) isn't nearly enough to confer superiority to today's players. LBJ, Howard, and D-Wade may be stronger and more powerful than guys in previous generations, but are they also quicker than a Dennis Rodman? Are they more flexible and agile on their feet than MJ? Do they have better court vision than Stockton or Magic? Better hand-eye coordination than Bird? Better box-out skills than Charles Barkey? Etc, etc, the point being that better off-the-court training and technology do not necessarily translate into better basketball.

Slightly less prosaic, I'd also argue that citing today's superior training, technology, methodologies, etc, is unfair to previous generations' players, because they didn't have access to these things and the odds are high that, if they did, they'd be just as big, strong, and "athletic" as the current crop of NBA talent. And, I think this is particularly true of superstars like MJ, Bird, Magic, Kareem, etc, who were so relentlessly competitive that they were often adapting, even in their own careers, to changes in the game.

As I see it, the strongest argument for the superiority of today's players (or stars) is essentially a matter of demographics and efficiency. This being the fact that the ratio of available players to actual NBA players is higher than ever. Demographically, available players now live in a more populated U.S. and are being drawn from an increasingly large percentage of the world's growing population. Efficiency-wise, there's the point that the growing popularity of NBA basketball, and the growing desire among kids to make the NBA, is decreasing the gap between potential basketball players and actual players. In a totally efficient market, all of the best basketball players would be playing basketball and competing to make the NBA. While obviously an unreachable ideal, it's probably the case that we're getting closer, especially compared to eras like the 1970s--bball's commercial nadir--when potential basketball players were more likely than today to go into another sport like baseball or football. (The late '60s/early 70's also has the ABA problem, which created horrible dilution for the NBA.)

A final point, I'm reminded of Stephen Jay Gould's famous argument for progress in baseball, advanced in his book Full House. He cites the decline of the .400 hitter, but the idea is that a major sign of progress is when the standard deviation between players and teams declines--because everyone will be clumped together at the right tail. This would make for an interesting, and relatively easy, study. Anyone know how the std. dev. of team's winning percentages has changed? Or, better, what about the std. dev. of individual player fg% or minutes? I would also be interested in the mean changes in free throw %--which is about as objective a statistic as exists in sports.

]]>
By: Jason J http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574&cpage=2#comment-39249 Tue, 11 Jan 2011 18:37:15 +0000 http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8574#comment-39249 AYC - To add to your point in 55, Tim Duncan was arguably the best player of the last decade, and he's never been all that fast or explosive. He's over-sized for a power forward, but that's about the only physical edge you could give him. Really he's not even exceptionally quick or agile for a great 5 (certainly not surpassing Hakeem, Robinson, Ben Wallace, Dwight, or Jermaine in their primes).

And to sort of define what I meant by saying LeBron is more athletic than Jordan (if I said it in those words), I would include size as a physical attribute rather than a basketball-specific skill and classify it as part of athleticism rather than skillset in those terms. It is a significant advantage to be bigger, taller, and stronger particularly when it doesn't come at the expense of speed and explosiveness.

]]>