37 Responses to “The Best Players Ever to be Traded Midseason”

1. Robert Roth Says:
   February 22nd, 2011 at 8:22 am

   I know it was unintedntional but unless I missed it entirely Dave DeBusschere was left off the list. In terms of impact on the new team (which wasn't the criteria) he very probably should have been near the top. Maybe as high as third.

2. Mike Goodman Says:
   February 22nd, 2011 at 9:07 am

   Oscar (#2) wasn't traded midseason. Royals' season ended Mar.21, and he was traded a month later.

   "... a trade was considered "midseason" if it came between the opening day of the season and the last day of the Finals."

   Oh, I see. Well, I also see a bunch of Apr-June trades that were nowhere near midseason.
   Can't you change this to "... last day of the regular season"? Nobody gets traded who is in the playoffs, do they?

   In fact, hasn't there always been a 'trading deadline'?

3. Neil Paine Says:
   February 22nd, 2011 at 9:30 am

   #2 - OK, I updated it to only include trades during the regular season.

   #1 - DeBusschere actually missed the top 100; his 5.1 weighted WS/82 wasn't quite enough to crack the list.

4. P Middy Says:
   February 22nd, 2011 at 10:20 am

   I keep wanting to hate on Chanucey (cuz he was a Piston), figuring out a way to make Felton to Chauncey a downgrade . . . but it's just not. Melo > Gallo. Keeping Landry. This is a pretty good deal.

5. AYC Says:
   February 22nd, 2011 at 10:59 am

   No surprise Wilt is at the top. As for Chauncey, why do WS rate him so highly? Never mind, we all know why....

6. Greyberger Says:
   February 22nd, 2011 at 11:09 am

   We do?

7. AYC Says:
   February 22nd, 2011 at 11:33 am

   Sure we do. A high rate of threes and FTA, shot with high accuracy. More than than makes up for the atrocious FG%. Since FT rate matters so much in advanced stats, I would love to see it on the leaders page.

8. Neil Paine Says:
   February 22nd, 2011 at 11:35 am

   You're seriously going to argue about this again?

9. TH Says:
   February 22nd, 2011 at 11:39 am

   Good post.

   Note that Billups is in a clear downtrend, whereas Gallo and Felton are in a clear uptrend.

   Based on this seasons numbers, Billups really doesn't look as good.

10. AYC Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 11:52 am

    Nah, I'm done arguing about it. I wasn't being sarcastic about wanting to see FT rates listed; in advanced stats, your shooting rates are just as important as your accuracy, if not more so.

11. Neil Paine Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 11:56 am

    I'll file a suggestion w/ Justin.

12. AYC Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    Thanks. I think you guys do a great job. I just like playing devil's advocate....

13. MCT Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    "In fact, hasn't there always been a 'trading deadline'?"

    There has been one since very early in the NBA's existence, at least, if not all the way back to the beginning. Baseball has had a trade deadline since the 1920s, and the NBA likely just followed MLB's example. There was a discussion about this on the APBR Board a while back:

    http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2762

    I believe there is one typo in the list at the link; 1986 should be February 15, the same as other years in that era, not February 25. With the exception of the lockout-shortened 1998-99 season, it looks like the deadline has never been any later than February.

    There is one deal on the list above that probably doesn't belong, which is the 3/14/72 trade involving Charlie Scott and Paul Silas. This wasn't really a trade in the conventional sense. Scott jumped from the ABA with the season in progress and wanted to sign with the Suns, but Phoenix had to make a deal with Boston because the Celtics owned Scott's draft rights. Red Auerbach had shrewdly taken him in the 7th round of the 1970 draft, after he had already signed with the ABA, figuring that the Celtics weren't likely to get a player of much value with the pick, and that Scott's rights could be a useful asset if he was ever in position to switch leagues in the future. (Think of it as the equivalent of a modern team selecting a promising player from overseas with a late second-round pick, knowing that the player won't be coming over right away, and might never come over at all.) Other teams had similarly used late-round picks on ABA players, but after seeing what Boston did, they began drafting ABA players much higher -- in the 1972 draft, for example, Julius Erving and Ralph Simpson were both eligible, and both were taken late in the first round.

    Silas didn't actually go to Boston during the 1971-72 season; the deal was Scott's rights for "future considerations", and Silas wasn't sent over to complete the trade until September. So Silas definitely doesn't belong on this list. I guess Scott is debateable.

14. Chuck Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    Lies. Damn lies. And statistics!

15. AHL Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    Shouldn't the weights be 0.6, 0.3, 0.1?

    I say this because I still can't believe Billups is #2 behind Wilt.

16. Sean Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    The Suns have traded away a lot of players high on this list:

    Shawn Marion (#13) - for Shaq
    Stephon Marbury (#15) - for cap relief to sign Nash
    Paul Silas (#16) - don't know
    Larry Nance (#18) - for KJ
    Connie Hawkins (#30) - don't know
    Jason Richardson (#47) - for Gortat, Pietrus, cap relief (I mean Vince Carter)

17. Anon Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 1:15 pm

    With apologies to Mr. Pelton, who wrote a nice article about the "Melo Effect", the Knicks picked up one heck of an overrated player.

    WS, SPM, APM - by a bunch of metrics Melo was arguably not even the best player on his own team. But with the way the media goes about this you'd think the Knicks traded for LeBron James-lite. And by the way, who's gonna play defense on that team he joined?

18. Neil Paine Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 1:24 pm

    #15 - Thanks, good catch. The data are correct, the typo was only in the post.

19. Neil Paine Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 1:32 pm

    #17 - I agree 100% with Kevin's assessment of Anthony, though:

    "I'm confident that Anthony is not one of the 10 best players in the league because of his defensive deficiencies. I'm also certain that the value of his ability to create shots for himself (as reflected, in part, in his teammates' scoring efficiency) means that he is an elite offensive player and an above-average player overall. There's an important gulf between those two extreme positions, and where Anthony really belongs will determine the ultimate success or failure of the Knicks."

20. Greyberger Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    Re: #5-12 I was just trying to bait you, AYC. I know your beef =)

    Re #17, how you want to rate Anthony is up to you. I do think it's a little absurd how often I'm hearing the "in the top N of players" argument.

    Let's say Melo is in the top ten, fifteen, twenty or what have you. What about fit? What about Melo getting the last max contract under this CBA, to go with the just-signed Stoudemire? Those contracts are going to look massive compared to next season's deals (when there is a next season).

    With that said, I think the trade improves the Knicks on the court, for now. The two big question marks are defense - how low can it go? - and Billups, who might be disgruntled or lost in the D'antoni scheme.

21. Jason J Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    We know what Carmelo does. We know what Amare does. Those things aren't changing. They should be fine offensively if Fields and Billups can consistently space the floor. The issue is going to be team defense and if they can find a great backline defender / rebounder on the cheap.

    Not sure how Chauncey will function in the SSOL offense. Brown and Saunders were pretty controlling and ran a ton of sets, but Karl didn't, and Billups had success with Denver as well. His age may be a problem too as Felton's onball defense was important, and I don't think Billups has the legs to put pressure d in his game anymore.

22. Neil Paine Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    For what it's worth, Billups was still getting it done defensively in Denver by on/off DRtg (1.5 pts/100 better when he was on the court), while Felton was horrible by on/off (Knick D was 8.5 pts of DRtg worse when he was in the game). And take it with an even bigger grain of salt, but counterpart PER tells the same story -- Billups is still average defensively at worst, while Felton was a liability.

23. Greyberger Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    Yeah, but 'on court' is still allowing 109 per hundo possessions, so if Billups was helping the Nuggets defense it wasn't by much.

    For what it's worth RAPM sees most of Billups value on the offensive end.

    I'm never sure how to read counterpart PER - for example I worry it might be reflective of the Knicks' weakness defending that position as a team rather than Felton's defense in a vacuum.

24. AYC Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    Who baited whom, Greyberger?

    Melo is a high volume shooter who doesn't play D, and doesn't pass. Congrats to NY for getting a less athletic version of Nique. As a Celtics fan, I'm not terribly worried... until they get Chris Paul, and some roleplayers who can defend, that is.

25. Jason J Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    Interesting data, Neil. I'd honestly have thought Ray's pressure d was just about the only good factor for the Knicks. Eye test fails again.

26. Anon Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    Greyberger,

    Do you think he's a top ten player? Just can't put him into that category, at least with the box-score and +/- data available (and Kevin's analysis). Above-average? Sure. Elite offensively? At times, but this man has shot his team out of more games for every time he puts up 50 and whips a no-look pass to Nene for the slam (they have played the crap of that highlight). And offense wasn't even the Knicks issue.

    Of course NY wants to build for the future, but they better grab some players who can at least guard their own shadow. Unless they want to become the D'Antoni Pheonix Suns of the East.

27. Neil Paine Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    #25 - Well, and Greyberger is right, the counterpart stats need to be taken with a boulder of salt. All it really means is that Knicks weren't great at defending opposing PGs when Felton was in the game. How much of that is directly Felton's fault and how much was due to scheme, cross-matching, and a host of other factors is debatable.

    I keep forgetting there's a site tracking in-season RAPM. Need to plug this, if just to remember it:

    http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

28. Alex Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 5:47 pm

    That was a terrible analysis! Donyell Marshall is number 20, Eddie Jones is number 10, old-ass Gary Payton number 7! This is what you get when you try to reduce the game to numbers. Unintelligent observations. There are so many more variables that go into it that just "win shares." That stat is apparently trying to be the ultimate expression of a player's contribution to a team, yet is just another faulty equation. Say what you will about Melo, this list is still brimming with statistic anomalies.

29. huevonkiller Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 10:11 pm

    #27

    Well all defensive stats can be affected by scheme that's not really the problem.

    I'll take defensive rating with a larger grain of salt. Counterpart per for non-tweeners is quite useful.

    Over a large sample size it can be just fine, think of it like adjusted plus-minus, which is even goofier in my opinion.

30. Joe R Says:
    February 22nd, 2011 at 11:38 pm

    My friend and I joked earlier how the Knicks are now the most exciting 43-39 team ever. Though of course Chris Paul can tip the scales from pretender to contender.

    I ask, though, could the Knicks even actually afford to sign both?

31. Greyberger Says:
    February 23rd, 2011 at 1:58 am

    Re #30, it's hard to say since it'll be a new CBA. Three max contracts is pushing it under the current one, they'll have to get creative to get Chris Paul in the mix. One thing's for sure, contracts like Stoudemire's and Anthony are definitely going to represent a larger percent of the cap (whatever form that cap takes).

    Although everybody should know by now what a crippling thing it is to have a dead-weight max contract, it sometimes seems like GMs can't help themselves. Orlando and Atlanta are playoff clubs, hopefully better managed than the bottom of the league. But I can't help but second-guess moves like trading for Arenas and his contract, or signing Joe Johnson to a new one that might end up being 40% of your total player salary.

32. Lig Lury Says:
    February 23rd, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    Following the latest news:
    Where would Deron Williams rate on this list?

33. Neil Paine Says:
    February 23rd, 2011 at 2:25 pm

    Williams is on pace for 9.9 WS/82 team games this year. Last year he had 10.3; the year before that, 8.4. So his 3-year weighted average would be 0.6*9.9 + 0.3*10.3 + 0.1*8.4 = 9.9, which ties him for 10th on the list.

34. AYC Says:
    February 23rd, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    Hilarious... With zero hype or speculation, the Nets just traded for a much better player than the Knicks did.

35. Stu B Says:
    February 23rd, 2011 at 9:06 pm

    How could such a list not include Earl Monroe?

36. BSK Says:
    February 24th, 2011 at 5:44 pm

    Re: Melo

    A lot of the conversation around him talks about him being the best pure scorer. What does that even mean? If the argument is that he is the best player at putting the ball in the basket, does anyone REALLY believe that? If the argument is that he's the best at being ONLY a scorer... I suppose that's possible. But is that really a good thing?

37. Ian Says:
    February 24th, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    As a Portland fan, I can pretty happily trumpet that I feel that Gerald Wallace would make this list.